Shawn2k7

Join Date 10/2008

AI Trading Tech Knowledge Amongst Itself...

I don't know if it is just me but I seem to notice that the AI tends to trade tech knowledge amongst itself quite a lot, insane amounts in fact... to the point where they can out tech you with barely having any tech buildings. This phenomenon is probably directly correlated to how many AI players are in the game, because more trading of points can occur.

I generally like to play in games with many AI players, typically 12-20 AI players. It seems to me like the AI likes to trade tech amongst itself quite a bit, this isn't a problem in itself, but at the rate that it is occurring right now I feel that this is an issue that has to be addressed because it kills the pacing of the game. I set the technology pacing on epic, but even by turn 100 or so nearly every single one of the AI has maxed out all of the trees while I am barely though the first quarter of some of the trees. I even built two conclaves as starting towns and it is still not possilble to keep up with the pace of their teching, solely because of the way they trade tech points, probably at a one to one ratio which you will not get unless the AI asks you. I can tell they don't have a lot of research because when I do research treaties with them I can see that I am getting far more research than they are out of the treaties. Even the crummiest little nations with barely 2-3 cities in comparison to the about 15 I have, have maxed out their trees.

The way that the tech points are set up right now basically self perpetuates the game very quickly to the end game. The AI basically trades for enough tech points to learn a tech, then gains that tech and the some tech points, then trades those points away to gain more tech... and around and around without barely having any research.

There needs to be some kind of limit on this spontaneous intelligence generation. Maybe, the game should keep track of how much of a tech you actually researched yourself and award you tech points accordingly. Say if you researched a tech 50% of it yourself then you would only be awarded 50% of the tech points. That way the amount of tech points in circulation would be less, and this would help to curve the amount of tech generation, while also giving technology friendly nations a greater advantage.

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I am wondering if there is some sort of bug similar to others that have been documented recently where the AI factions are able to claim the benefits of tech trading without paying the costs. I have noticed that my frequent trading partners - the ones I strip the tech trade points away from in the trade screen - seem to tech up much more slowly than hostile AIs with which I do not trade. If they are able to use tech trade points to get new techs from other AIs without depleting their stock of available tech trade points then it would explain the behavior I see.

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I'll show an example. This guy has been getting beat up all day by the other AI's not myself, and has never had more than 4 towns... take a look at the top right hand corner and see how shitty his civilization is.... take a look at the botton right and look in awe at his research capabilities... da faq...? >.>

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Borg999

Join Date 02/2006

+59

SD, please make "No tech brokering" an option please.

It works in GC2, it can work in FE.

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Humility

Join Date 09/2007

Hmmm, unless you playing mod and cause this mod factor? I do playing game in normal level, but not like that you show, yes I'm aware a.i do faster reseach than I do, but not much problem, I hurry and get there and build most wonder, quick gain troop to hold a.i off in normal level...but in screenshot, that is lot for one setter, unless he got all those reseached when he had lot of town but now lost lot of town? I wonder? was that playing large map or something?

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Quoting ,

quoting post

The AI basically trades for enough tech points to learn a tech, then gains that tech and the some tech points, then trades those points away to gain more tech... and around and around without barely having any research.

That's a good point. If it's true then two cooperating players can basically unlock a whole research tree instantly:

1, player A researches a tech and gains 100 tech points for trade

2, player B researches a tech and gains 100 tech points for trade

3, players A and B exchange their tech points. This causes both of them to gain a new tech.

4, Since both players researched a new tech(thanks to the trade in point 3) they now also received a fresh pool of tech points to trade with

5, right back to point 3, and repeat.

Maybe the tech points(for trading) you receive from researching a tech should be lowered by the amount of tech points(from trade) you used to unlock that tech(half of the research needed to unlock tech X came from a trade = tech X only awards 50% of the normal tech trade points)

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Yes that is what I am thinking is occurring Stax, but I have really no way to prove it cause I don't know whats going on behind the scenes, but that would be what appears to be happening.

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I don't see how this is a bug or exploit, considering they're always damned eager enough to constantly ask me for technology trades. They're not locking you out of the loop unless they hate you, which is reasonable. They're treating you the same way they treat each other...not their fault if you refuse of you've already made them enormously angry.

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Tech point generation seems to have some bugs... a few people have reported that the AI is generating more than they should...

Here's the way it is SUPPOSE to work:

1. When you research a tech, you get 10% of the tech's value in tech points.

2. When you trade you lose those points.

Basically, everyone has 110% research. 100 is normal, and the extra 10% can only be earned by trading. It shouldn't be possible to create an endless cycle of points with this.

Having said that, I suspect the AI might be ignoring certain rules regarding this. If I had to guess, I'd say that it probably has something to do with game pacing and map size (both has an effect on tech costs), this MIGHT explain why some people see this and some don't. So if you are reporting something relating to this, it would be nice if you could lay out your game setup. If there's a concensus on game setup where this problem occurs, it would help them track the problem down.

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In my last game, I'm playing with around 20 AI in a huge map (using a pack of mods from someone that posted them with a savegame).

In the late game, the tech points they have is just awesome. Like the image from above.

Not sure about this, but could it be related with playing with losts of AIs?

Maybe there is a leak in that 10% or whatever, that it is not lost after a trade. As each AI seem to use it to trade with all the other 19 in each turn, it results in that HUGE amount of tech points, that instead of disappear, they increase.

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Humility

Join Date 09/2007

I guess basic on post, it's happan in large map with many a.i cause this, but not happan in small map with max 8 a.i or less a.i, I had no problem with normal map with normal everything set up...

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This is a game breaking bug for me. I can not play unless this is fixed.

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After further testing I noticed that this is indeed directly correlated to the amount of AI players, and not map size. In fact if you play on a larger map with less AI players, they actually tech slower because they don't meet each other as quickly and do research treaties.

Tests were as follows

Mods Run:

Stormworld (v1.5u)

LargerMaps (v1.1)

Snaking Mod (v1.3)

Tech Pacing: Epic

AI Settings: Challenging

Most Other Things Set to Max: Monster Frequency, Shards, Resources, Quests, Wildlands.

Huge Map, 10 Players total - I can keep up or out tech the AI.

Huge Map 18 Players - After about 50 turns the AI started to grow exponentially in research, disproportionate to the amount of infrastructure in their towns.

Large Map, 8p Players total - Can keep up with AI tech.

Why this "bug" occurs with many AI players is unknown, seeing as the game was designed for only 9 players max, and the fact that this bug doesn't seem to occur at that amount of players, this issue may not be resolved (since it cannot occur without the aid of mods). I don't know if the mods are thee actual cause of this error itself, but it would seem unlikely as none of them seem to edit research/tech tress/diplomacy. The only way to rule out that trading tech is the cause of this bug, would be to be able to disable the trading of tech completely. Then observe the rate of which the AI researches - but we are not given that option.

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yeah thats how it gets so far ahead!

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2415

Looking at that screenshot, I wonder...

Here's what I'm thinking:

When a player trades knowledge, it posts a message to the internal server to reduce the amount of knowledge it has.

I am thinking that when the AI trades amongst itself, in a given turn, that that knowledge doesn't get subtracted because the message hasn't been processed. I'd have to play around with it to see if that's the case. It trades knowledge with you the same as it does itself. But each AI player is running in a concurrent thread unlike you as humans obviously don't run in a thread of any kind at all.

But I'll check it out.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 15

Looking at that screenshot, I wonder...

Here's what I'm thinking:

When a player trades knowledge, it posts a message to the internal server to reduce the amount of knowledge it has.

I am thinking that when the AI trades amongst itself, in a given turn, that that knowledge doesn't get subtracted because the message hasn't been processed. I'd have to play around with it to see if that's the case. It trades knowledge with you the same as it does itself. But each AI player is running in a concurrent thread unlike you as humans obviously don't run in a thread of any kind at all.

But I'll check it out.

I always rejoice when I see thoughts like these from you Frog, Thanks!

Sincerely
~ Mr Grumpy

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2415

Thanks!

It was something similar to this that was the issue that caused the AI to not defend its cities as well as it should. It checks to see if the city's defense is strong enough still if that unit leaves. If it is, then it posts a message to leave. The problem was, as soon as it felt it was strong enough, all the other units would leave too because of the timing between it checking for the unit to leave and the time it actually left.

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Here, AI has 1402 research, opposed to my humble 14

I don't use any mods. Is this normal? Need me to post a save?

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Quoting Borg999,

reply 3

SD, please make "No tech brokering" an option please.

It works in GC2, it can work in FE.

It also worked very well in Civ IV. I'd like this as an option, but I don't think we'll get it--simply because selecting it would put AI opponents at a considerable disadvantage. And for some reason, some players seem to think that any options that leave the player in charge of more game balance are inherently bad.

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Thank you for looking into it Frogboy, this really is a game breaking bug for those of us who like to play this game on larger scales. I've reserved myself to 8-10 players just because of this bug.

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Game breaking indeed!

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found this in ElementalDefs.xml :

<KnowledgeFromResearchPercentage>10</KnowledgeFromResearchPercentage>

question : might not be that 10 in percentage should be .10 as ten lines below:

this should explain the ludicrous values of AI tech trading.

i'll mod, check and come back.

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I changed that percentage to zero for now either way, but have not had the motivation to start another game at this point. Need another patch. I also read a post by FrogBoy that an expansion is due out in February on the CivFanatic's forums (I am at work so I can't access Civ Fanatic's forums right now to confirm it was February, but I know it was soon).

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changed to 0.10 . now the numbers are more "realistic", in terms of 1 research points instead of 1000.

next challenge, how to avoid everybody declare me war all the time.

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Quoting drunetovich,

reply 18

Reduced 58%

Original 976 x 678

Here, AI has 1402 research, opposed to my humble 14

I don't use any mods. Is this normal? Need me to post a save?

Yes this is normal the AI is SMART and you are an IGMO teehee.

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Quoting willie sanderson,

reply 25

Yes this is normal the AI is SMART and you are an IGMO teehee.

How do I produce so much research points? AI has about 5 cities, so he has to make about 300 research points in each town.

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