MOD: Stargate Races - 2011/12/13 - Diplomacy v1.34 Update

dolynick

Join Date 04/2008

+44

MOD: Stargate Races - 2011/12/13 - Diplomacy v1.34 Update

This mod adds custom races to the game based on races from the various Stargate television series. At present it includes the Ancients, Wraith, Asgard, Goa'uld and the Ori.

Ancients:

A race that uses larger, more powerful ships to compose the basis of their fleet. You will have a fraction of the number of ships in your fleet but many of them are more comparable in power to a capital ship for other races than to a frigate. Ancient capital ships are immensely powerful and include the fabled Atlantis city ship. They are also able to build Space Gates that allow near instant travel between planets, allowing them to easily shift their fleet resources as needed.

Wraith:

A race whose ships do not have shields but who compensate with increased hull points, armor and regeneration rates. They have a wide selection of cruisers of varying power but only one type of capital ship, Hives, which are the heart of their fleet.

Asgard:

A race whose ships focus on shields and mobility. Asgard vessels and structures have low hull point scores but all have shield points. While they may not have dramatically more shield points than other races, their shields are superior in mitigation factors and mitigation build-up, with multiple research entries for improvements. The Asgard fleet employs no strikecraft but makes up for the lack thereof with superior anti-fighter weaponry on various ships and structures and a notable advantage in mobility. Sublight and hyperspace engines are highly advanced and provide superior mobility in both local gravity wells as well as interplanetary & interstellar travel and the Asgard empire tree provides numerours upgrades which provide further mobility advantages.

Goa'uld

A parasitic race who pose as gods to their subjects. A powerful economy and formiddable diplomatic and cultural tools combine to make them a force to be reckoned with. They may only have a handful of frigates and cruisers but most serve several functions. Powerful capital ships anchor their fleet and complete their tools for conquest.

Ori

An offshoot of the Ancient race founded on fanatical belief in ascended beings who call themselves the Ori. Governed by the Priors, living beings empowered by the Ori to impose their will, the followers of Origin are empowered by the the vast knowledge of the universe that their ascended overlords possess. The Ori fleet is composed of a full compliment of ships varying in size but all very powerful. Even the smallest frigates are protected by powerful shields and the massive capital ships are capable of engaging entire enemy fleets by themselves as they spread Origin across the universe or destroy all those who refuse to submit to the will of the Ori.

Latest Release Versions:

Diplomacy v1.34

dolynick_SGRaces-d1.06.zip

Galaxy Mod (Standalone, customized Sins Plus version for Diplomacy):

dolynick_GalaxyMod-d1.06.zip

Planet Size mod:

dolynick_PlanetSize-d1.03.zip

SG Galaxy Mod (Merge of SGRaces, GalaxyMod and PlanetSize mods):

dolynick_SGGalaxy-d1.06.zip

Fleet Size mod:

dolynick_FleetSize-d1.03.zip

All are Manifest friendly. Verified to work with Volumetric Explosions and Bailknights for Entrenchment. Priority order, top to bottom: 1) SG-Races, 2) PlanetSize, 3) FleetSize, 4) Volumetric, 5) Bailknight's.

If you are using SGGalaxy then you may stack it with the FleetSize mod as follows: 1) SGGalaxy, 2) FleetSize, 3) Volumetric, 4) Bailknight's.

**Note: It may be necessary to reduce game effect settings to "high" from "highest", especially when using Volumetric Explosions and Bailknight's graphic effects in conjunction with SGRaces or SGGalaxy. It may also be necessary to edit your user.setting file and increase the MaxParticleCount setting (default value is 6000).

-dolynick

modding

Locked Post +10 Karma

Advanced Search

Watch this post

Do not email me updates for this post Email me updates for this post

Successfully updated karma reason!

jartigerx
bhu11
nexus991
Templar56
Cykur
Turak
cmbrock
sparten117
Thoumsin
reaper1919

Quoting Theophantus,

reply 1575

Dolynick, can you tell me what the Prometheus mesh is called please. I can't find this mesh. It must be named something else.
Cheers Theo.

There is no Prometheus in this mod. The Humans/Tau'ri are not included in the SGRaces mod in it's current version. You may be thinking of the Stargate Invasion mod, which has it's own thread elsewhere in the modding forum.

-dolynick

Successfully updated karma reason!

Really sorry, I've been borrowing stuff from both mods, SGI's for entrenchment and yours for diplomacy, I got confused looking at all the files and folders open for hours. I feel and look like an idiot

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Theophantus,

reply 1577

No worries. It's not the first time the two have been confused. We've actually helped each other out in the past between the two projects before and there are a few posts by myself in their forums and vice versa too.

-dolynick

Successfully updated karma reason!

GREAT hopfully they don't update it for quiet a while.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Gotta say, ive played this mod and the SGI mod and to be honest I like this one tons more. Gould race is def my favorite. Well done sir!

Successfully updated karma reason!

Salutations Dolynick!

As a long time enjoyer of your mod I thought I would put my 2c in, but first let me thank you for putting your personal time into something for so many others.

After playing through continuously vs Vicious AI (have to love vacation days), and pushing the limits of all the races, I have just a few minor inputs on balancing, yes I know "balancing" the dreaded word, nearly impossible to accomplish invariably biased from person to person but always ravenously demanded.

As it currently stands there is a clear hierarchy of races from strongest to weakest (note the actually numerical value out of ten next to each race):

Ori 10

Ancients 8

Asgard 7

Goa'uld 5

Wraith 2

The Ori need not even build any cruisers or support ships, save for SB constructors to quickly dominate, and their "400 pt cap" is a death machine especially when combined with the optimal synergistic combo of caps.

The Ancients possess an excellent self healing cap and support ship core, but it's their never ending replication and expansion coupled with a non-capital carrier that has the ability to lock down opposing capitals with ease and is often deployed in disturbing numbers, save for the super Ori capitals which need only fire off sever key abilities to lay waste to large swaths of any fleet, the Ancients are unstoppable, more so the latter in the game you get.

The Asgard, in a word Ragnarok, the most deadly vessel in their arsenal, a tier 1 ability that decimates light ships and when used en-masse (read 5 or more) can crush whole fleets (though seldom made by the AI). That being said, it's the Loki Trickster (usually made by the boat load when played by the AI) that pushes them above the Goa'uld and Wraith. The ability to assimilate large numbers of vessels puts them over the top versus races who do not have "uber" capital vessels to counter with, specifically the Goa'uld and the Wraith.

The Goa'uld have a very interesting, and nearly balanced combat capacity, their capital vessels, even the Anubis are not overly powerful, even their masses of "cheap" strike craft, the uberness of the Ha'tak and the oompf of their economy isn't over the top, the only decidedly difficult task with engaging them is their masses of Jan'tak with a fairly long duration disable, and a hefty pool of antimatter.

The Wraith, oh the poor wraith, without shields, and by that I specifically mean "shield mitigation", the Wraith, even with their heftier armor are just easy pray for all of the other races, while they can amass a large fleet, they rarely (in the hands of the player) will live long enough to do that, and even when they succeed in doing so, will usually be decimated by the seemingly low damage coupled with their low survivability and against a vicious AI who has 10x(?) the build rate and economic capacity that rapidly equates to losing and losing badly over prolonged fights.

To further express this, I built a map that gave me ample time to build up and mass a defense at a key choke point which included 5 Caps (lvl 6-10), 20 Anti-Fighter Frigates, 1 SB maxed def/off, approx 90+ Defense Platforms, with 21 Repair bays (built up by Warmongers) with maxed weapons/hull/armor techs and maxed defense platform self-heal and aoe attack. The Ancient opponent attacked with 3 of their "Basic" Advent clone caps (all lvl 7), 8 Carriers, 7 Aurora Hvy Cruisers, 10 Alexo Corsair Frigates, 2 Adamas, and 2 Tantillus. At the end of the fight, I lost everything, the enemy had 1 Cap (lvl 10), 3 Aurora, and 2 Adamas. Essentially, I lost what amounts to 1300 fleet point + 35 def platforms + maxed SB to the enemies loss of 1130 fleet points, and this is with optimal placement, pulling the enemy and pinning them to maximize my AoE from the defense platforms and having 21 repair platforms.

Personally I love the Ori, love their mechanics but find it far too easy to quickly win as them, the Ancients are not far behind and the Asgard offer some challenges early game that are quickly overcome by the production of only a few Ragnaroks. As I stated, the Goa'uld feel fairly balanced save for the ease with which you can shut down an enemy frigate fleet with the Jan'tak. The Wraith need some love, their fighters are fairly capable, but don't make up for their fragility and the generally weaker feeling of their warships, either they are going to need a very major armor buff, or an innate upgradeable damage reduction to compete with the shield mitigation of their opponents.

Again, thank you for all the personal time you've put into this mod, it is extremely enjoyable.

>--Drache-->

Successfully updated karma reason!

Personally, I find the Gould to be a very worthy combat race when played right. I was playing a game for approx 5ish hours the other night as the Gould, finally came in contact with the Ori around hour 3 after they had already wiped out the Wraith and Asgard and to be honest I was more than a match for them with my mass of Ha'tak ships. I wiped out a majority of their fleet in the first few engagements. I feel like the Gould are my favorite race for long games. Strong economy, good ships, and just over all alot of fun to make 1 ship and fight ship to ship or ship to planet.

Thanks

Successfully updated karma reason!

I agree, as a player you should be able to overcome any AI opponent fairly easily, I assume you were fighting Vicious AI (really what is the point in having lesser AI's) with any of the races if you have time to max out your fleet, simply because the enemy will split up his resources between sectors or more often flail against a hardened system allowing you to quickly counter-attack.

You should take that test on a map where you have very early contact with the Ori, where the AI is not already focused on attacking other AI opponents and see how you fair, that in all honesty is the likely litmus test of the Goa'uld vs Ori dynamic.

As for the Ori, you could have easily defeated the Goa'uld, Wraith, and Asgard opponents without waiting to build up, and had the overall game time of that map reduced to less than two hours.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Drache,

Glad to hear that an experienced player like yourself enjoys the mod. Thank you for the feedback and taking all the time it must have to make those assessments.

I'm certainly not going to argue that the Ori are likely the most powerful race, particularly in the late game. They have a massive amount of research and arguably gain the most improvement from it as well. On the flip side, they are massively expensive (both ships and research) and take a long time to get there. It wouldn't surprise me that they do have an advantage if they are allowed to progress that far. The hierarchy of the Ancients and then the Asgard following seems reasonable as well although I have a few comments regarding that.

It's interesting though that you find the Wraith to be so underpowered. I won't argue that they might be since they are/were by far the most difficult to balance because of the lack of shields. I did the math when I made them trying to compensate for no shields/mitigation but in the end it's a bit of guesswork. When I did my calculations, I did not assume that mitigation applies yet AFTER shields are down (and I'm not convinced that it does fully yet either but that's another discussion), so that might account for things being off a bit if that is the case. I have not found that the Wraith ships are overly fragile though as you found them to be. I did some testing and I'll share the results.

This is freshly spawned ships, no research on either side done:

1 Hive vs 2 Kol (100 fleet vs 2x50 fleet) = Hive wins, with a few thousand hull left. The Hive had Colonize, the Kols had Guass on one and Shield on the other.

1 Hive vs 2 Marza (100 fleet vs 2x50 fleet) = Marzas win, decisively. The massive frontal damage on the Marzas explains it, Getting the hive into a position to use it's side firing weapons might make a difference but I'd expect the same results in the end since both Marzas survive in a head on assault anyways. The Hive had Colonize, the Marzas had radiation on one and shells on the other.

1 Hive vs 2 Radiance (100 fleet vs 2x50 fleet) = Hive wins, with a few thousand hull left. Hive had colonize, Detonate Antimatter on one Radiance and Absorb on the other.

2 Hives vs 1 Ancient Invictus (2x100 fleet vs 200 fleet) = Invictus wins, decisively. Drone Swarm on the Ancient Battleship.

2 Hives vs 1 Ancient Revenant (2x100 fleet vs 150 fleet) = Hives win, both surviving with one near death and the other badly damaged. Imperium Revenant had Drone Swarm.

1 Spire vs 1 Kol (50 fleet vs 50 fleet) = Spire wins with 1500+ hull left. Kol had Gauss. Spire has no abilities.

1 Spire vs 1 Marza (50 vs 50) = Marza wins with 1000+ hull left. Marza had incendiary shells. Spire has no abilities.

1 Spire vs 1 Radiance (50 vs 50) = Spire wins, 1500+ hull left. Radiance had Detonate Antimatter. Spire has no abilities.

1 Spire vs 5 Kodiaks (50 vs 5x10) = Kodiaks win, 3 surviving. Moving the spire into a more middling position so it can use side turrents helps but not enough to turn the battle. Spire has no abilities but with Plasma burst etc and positioning this might be very different.

1 Spire vs 4 Kodiaks (50 vs 4x10) = Kodiaks win again, 2 surviving but one very near death. This was done head on and better positioning my actually turn the battle here. Spire has no abilities.

1 Spire vs 3 Kodiaks (50 vs 3x10) = Spire wins with 1000+ hull left. Spire has no abilities.

The above results don't look too bad. At least not as bad as you seemed to assess the Wraith with no mitigation to be. A few of them look like perhaps a bit of tweaking might be needed (Hives vs Ancient caps for instance) and some will probably be greatly affected by research and/or levels (spire vs kodiaks, spire vs caps, caps vs caps). But, based on the above I don't think that a blanket damage resistance is really needed on the Wraith. They could likely use a little boost maybe, perhaps a slight damage jump or maybe 25% more hull but with factors involved in the above tests the balance doesn't seem too far off.

Regarding Super Caps (400 pointers)... These are mainly meant to be "end game" ships. By that I mean the construction of one is sort of a game ending thing unless both sides happen to get them around the same time. They take the place of the usual "super weapon" type thing for the standard races. The exception being the Ancients Atlantis, which is a bit more integral to the late game success of the Ancient feet than the Ragnarok or Sovereign, and Clone Ship is more the super weapon. I would not consider the Ragnarok or Sovereign as part of the fleet vs fleet balance of either the Asgard or the Ori.

Regarding the Asgard fleet... It's interesting that you find the Loki to be the thing that saves them. Usurpation being a permanent stealing of the ship is actually a bug. It was never intended to be permanent and if you look at the ability, it does have an expiry... but it doesn't work. I have not been able to figure out why yet. The ability is actually almost a direct copy of the stock advent Domination ability. It's a bit baffling. In the end though, it does make the Asgard far more dangerous. Personally, I find groups of Mjolnirs with Propogative Blast backed up with Eirs makes the core of my later game fleet and is capable of going toe to toe with most things. Throw in your Capships (late game a high level Odin and Heimdall with other supporting caps is mandatory for me) and I don't find Lokis to be necessary. They are awfully handy for building a surprise fleet with strikecraft support though and they're particularly nasty against any race that has big, powerful and expensive heavy cruisers. Mitigation upgrades are also critical to the late game power of the Asgard ships I think.

Regarding the Wraith fleet... It's odd that you find that the Loki saves the Asgard but seem to disregard that aspect of the Wraith. Unlike the Loki Usurpation ability, the Boarding Party ability on the Heavy Cruisers IS intended to be a permanent ship stealer. The Wraith are also the only race with the ability to steal structures too, although I have not really played around with that much as I admit I don't play the Wraith that much myself. In your battle scenario where the Wraith lost so badly vs the Ancients, having Heavies in there stealing the big Ancient cruisers would have ended that battle quickly if you had needed. The AI never uses Boarding Party though, and access to it is tied to a Marshal upgrade so perhaps it's not apparent that it's an option later game. I also find it interesting that the Wraith tend to often be the dominant AI race in my own vs AI games as often, they seem to hold they're own just fine AI vs AI. For what it's worth, my late game fleets tend to be Spires and Hoard ships backed up with Heavies and Hives and some support cruisers if I can manage it. I find them relatively effective but yes, I do take more losses than with my late game Ancient, Ori or Asgard fleets. The Wraith "super weapon" is probably the most powerful of all the races though, but also maybe the most subtle as you don't really "see" it as a single entity.

Don't take all of this as me dismissing your balance feedback. It's more intended as discussion of the matter as I, personally, haven't observed some of the problems you pointed out in my own play. I thought I'd offer some alternative views and suggestions for the various races.

-dolynick

Successfully updated karma reason!

Dolynick,

I've pushed the Wraith through several incarnations on another newer and easier map to "build-up" with pitting them against the Goa'uld, Ancients, and the Asgard. My observations are that the Wraith (when fully maxed) and predominantly fielding Mindshredder/Spires with a smattering of Heavy Cruisers and Carriers performs the best with the following issues:

Heavy Cruisers don't seem to use their version of "domination" without input, even when on auto-cast, whereas the Mindshredders do, along with offering a handy "shut down" CC.

The following were the results of the engagements:

vs Ancients... Ancient fleet had over 15k fleet points, concentrated in over 300 Tantillus, 170 Mirus, 35 Excalibur, 28 Aurora, 8 Alexo Corsairs, 4 Adamas, and 6 of their Expiscor Corvettes. I had 1 SB, maxed fleet mostly Spire/Minshredder with 20 Horde and 20 Hvy Cruisers and was able to deploy a half dozen repair platforms, this is at a Naval world with full bonuses for myself. The fight took quite some time, with both sides pumping reinforcements in (Vicious AI will always pull ahead here) but truthfully would have ended badly for the Wraith either way, as it was at the very end, I simply could not cap/steal/kill fast enough to overwhelm the replication of forces and lost the entirety of my fleet, while the Ancients had some 250+ and 100+ respectively of those two support vessels.

vs Goa'uld... Goa'uld fleet composition was some 88 Jan'tak, 52 Ha'tak, and Mixed Capital Ships (predominantly Sokar and Osiris), same Wraith fleet composition, battle was over Goa'uld planet, away from their SB with no benefit save for half strength culture bonus for Goa'uld end result was marginal victory for Goa'uld, had they not had the mass of Jan'tak it is possible the Wraith would have won, unfortunately almost all of the Wraith non-caps were disabled for the majority of the fight, while 20 Wraith Caps fell one after the other. End Goa'uld fleet was some 30 Jan'tak, and mixed frigates, along with most of the Ha'taks.

vs Asgard... Asgard fleet composition (really wish I had started keeping better track as I started with the Goa'uld mid fight) was a mix of capitals though predominantly Heimdalls, 34 Loki (this I have burned into my memory) the rest were predominantly Mjolnirs with a smattering of Eirs and Gungnirs. Wraith fleet was composed slightly differently, in this case I had over 50 Mindshredders, with mixed Heavy Cruisers, and Horde (hoping to get the Bombers in to knock out the Loki early and often), about 30 Spire, and the usual 20 Caps (level 4-8). Battle took place around a star as a meeting engagement, end result of battle was a decidedly Asgard victory first round (letting AI handle bulk of fight) and a limited Asgard victory the more pause and act/react round. The Loki were far more efficient at "dominating" my vessels then mine were at taking theirs, that combined with the incredible rapidity of loss of the Mindshredders to the AoE spam put my forces on the quickly losing side, unfortunately even maxed research, cloning facility, 5 frigate factories and an Industrial World could not keep up with the two worlds with only 2 Frigate factories each pumping reserves into the fight. The more interesting dynamic was that the AI pumped out Loki > Mjolnir > Gungnir in that order of priority. End result was total loss for the Wraith, and over 50 "captured" vessels in the hands of the Asgard, mostly Hvy Cruisers and Spires with the composition of the Asgard fleet mostly Mjolnirs, as I focused down Loki as fast as I possibly could.

In the end, the Asgard and Goa'uld encounters would likely have been Wraith victories if the battle had taken place over one of my fortified worlds with a slightly longer reinforce time for either. The Ancient battle however was simply un-winnable, paramount to fighting the Replicators themselves.

Again, thank you for making the mod, love it and will keep playing it.

>--Drache-->

Successfully updated karma reason!

Well against an Ancient fleet of 15k supply I wouldn't expect victory... That's absurd and I've only ever seen an Ancient AI go that crazy with replication once or twice out of dozens and dozens of games. I'm guessing your fleet supply was about 12k total if it was maxed out? Being on your own turf would help, along with your defenses though. Either way it's a crazy battle. Vicious AI doens't help matters here, and would be more apt to generate a ridiculous Ancient fleet like that (not really intended but given what Sins gives us to work with, it's the compromise I opted for). Viscious AI isn't really any smarter, it just gets ridiculous amounts of resources and other cheats so it can through the kind of money at things the way it would have to support that extent of ongoing replication.

You're examples are all valuable but they're large fleet balance issues, it's a bit different than what you had mentioned earlier. Your original suggestion/complaint was that the Wraith ships were too vulnerable because they do not have shields/mitigation. My response was laying out my own testing of the power/survivability of the Wraith ships in comparison to other races. My results indicated that while some tweaking might help, the Wraith ships were not dramatically overly fragile in a fleet cost vs fleet cost scenario with their current hull/armor/shield specs.

If the above is accurate (those were just my results, show me a case where they aren't and maybe changes do need to be made) the issue of a huge Ancient (or any other race) fleet being unbeatable with an equivalent Wraith fleet becomes one of a deficiency of ability or a lack of synergy between the Wraith fleet's offerings OR something about the other fleets being overpowering in unbalance. In these kinds of scenarios, what do you think may have helped even things out? A longer cooldown on the Loki Usurpation ability (since it was never meant to be permanent anyways)? Perhaps the specific case of the Mindshredder being a bit too squishy? One of the Wraith abilities getting a bit of a boost? A longer cooldown on the Jan'tak disable ability or perhaps an increase in antimatter cost (or reducing their pool altogether)? I don't think simply doubling the hull points (just an example) on the wraith fleet is the proper fix in these cases and would probably just cause other problems (suddenly their ships are unbeatable in a one on one engagement of equivalent ships).

I will admit, I rarely play the Wraith. Their style is probably my least favorite of the races and I find them a bit "blah". That does probably mean that they haven't benefitted from as much critical analysis during play from me as the other races.

As for the scenarios...

Ancients: I would have never engaged that fleet all at once. I would have tried to split it up if possible or bribed another AI to attack it too.

Goa'uld: I would never engage that many Jan'tak. Ha'tak are good, but can be dealt with because they're not actually as dangerous as their stats might say (they're actually a bit week in direct fire for they're supply... since the damage is split equally among all four sides). But Jan'tak have very long range anti-structure weapons... which also happen to be quite deadly to ships. Anything that those Jan'taks shoot at is going to die, and quickly. My first order of business would have been to somehow take them out of the fight... They aren't that sturdy so maybe an overwhelming focus firing blitzkreig on the Jan'taks... Or a massive strikecraft attack on them before the goa'uld gliders thinned things out. If I had 30 spires, I might have tried to fly them into the middle of the Jan'taks and had them all Plasma Burst away like mad to do massive AoE damage quickly. Their disable ability does make it trickier though, you might need a small diversionary fleet to sacrifice to the ion blasts while you take them out.

Asgard: Not sure here... You did target the Lokis which is exactly what I'd have done too if I had large numbers of capturable ships. Strikecraft are good at picking off specific targets but the Asgard fleet has ways of nullifying them fairly effectively. Generally speaking I either lure enemy fleets with Lokis to a starbase (often with valuable ships sent away from the fight) or I go after them specifically with non-capturable cap ship groups only. Vicious AI's stupid fast build and resource rate might make that unfeasible though... but that's not really a balance issue because Vicious AI is inherently unbalanced to begin with.

I would also really like to know if any of these scenarios would be as "unwinnable" or lobsided against the Wraith if it had been a hard AI instead, with a more equal set of rules. I understand it's more challenging with Vicious but it's not a good indicator of balance in a battle where one side is able to reinforce at 6 times the normal speed of the other.

-dolynick

Successfully updated karma reason!

Dolynick,

Those are fair summaries and good assessments, and I agree the Wraith do have a very blah combat style with limited synergies or dynamic "oh noes" comeback capabilities offset by their massive fleet supply (with the extended fleet it's around 9000). And while I believe on a 1v1 to almost all equal cost capital ships especially with max research they are at a decided disadvantage there is that balancing issue at max supply where they really do bear down with a mighty weight of admittedly pound for pound inferior ships that are hard to balance 1v1 due to the 50% fleet supply increase.

I agree that should the Goa'uld AI not build the mass of Jan'taks, which they usually do if/when their first fleet of usually Ha'taks are destroyed, I believe the Wraith can fairly regularly win an offensive and always win a defensive battle against them. The balancing issue here is that the Jan'tak is the best asset of the Goa'uld to counter both the Ancients and the Asgard, point in fact, other than an Anubis aoe zerg it is effectively the most powerful tactic they can muster.

The Loki is likely the most difficult ship in the game to counter, while the Jan'tak is a durable, hard hitting, disabling craft of evil annoyance, and the Tantillus is a self-replicating game lagging monster that probably needs to lose that one ability, the Loki is by far and away the most efficient fleet breaker, as it's compulsion is to grab the highest fleet supply ships first (as these are usually the most forward of your vessels) what further offsets this is the relative durability and low fleet supply, combined with rapid reproduction and the AI's seemingly OCD building priority. I agree with you here that balancing this vessel is hard, very hard, even with how effective (point for point) the Mjolnir is, the Asgard need an effective CC vessel.

As to the Wraith Mindshredder, it might be better to move it's 3rd ("Domination") ability to the Heavy Cruiser in a sort of swap of 3rd abilities. That should offset the survivability while adding additional uses and preventing low fleet supply cost from allowing 1000 of these vessels to be produced (another tactic I was going to try). Another possibility is to move it to the Spire and make the Mindshredder the fleet buffing disabler.

As an aside, the one possible "buff/change" to Wraith Caps, would be to add an aoe "cleanse" ability to remove "effects" from ones own fleet, a small radius, tier 8 tech, 4th slot ability. Afraid I don't know that I have ever seen an aoe version of this or if it's even possible, it's the simplest way I can see of "buffing" the Wraith without unduly influencing the other races abilities.

The only balancing changes I can come up with in terms of the races (save for the Ori) are as follows:

Ancients: Change "Ion Bolt" to only effect non-caps (Excalibur Carrier), remove the replication feature off of the Tantillus, and if necessary move it to the Tier 4 or higher Cap. The Ancients have a phenomenal amount of self healing so shouldn't be unduly effected by this.

Asgard: Loki..this is a hard one...consider changing the range on this to very short and slightly increasing the cooldown, this is more likely to put the Loki into AoE pockets before they can start spamming their ability while still giving the Asgard an effective CC.

Goa'uld: Jan'tak, consider moving the CC to the Ha'tak, upping the Ha'tak firepower and doubling it's fleet supply cost. Making it into an effective carrier/heavy cruiser combo with abilities, the "go-to" vessel while adding slightly more firepower and/or range to the Jan'tak or possibly a ranged small damage AoE to offset this, essentially putting the Jan'tak into the "counter ships with abilities" role.

Wraith: Move Mindshredder "Domination" ability to the Spire in a swap for "Bolster Fleet", converting the mindshredder into the fleet buffer/debuffer . Give the caps a Level 6 ability to remove the disable debuff off of non-caps in a small radius to replace the AoE tier 6 debuff and put a lesser version on the Marshall Support Cruiser that stacks to an equal total. Buff "Bolster Fleet" damage/rate of fire while reducing the radius to help keep the Mindshredder a key vessel.

I think this should level the playing field pretty effectively, while the Wraith early game will still be a bit weaker (in a players hands) late game they will have an effective combo and a more synergistic fleet. The Ancients and Asgard will drop down a bit, more in line with the Goa'uld while giving the Goa'uld that "signature" Ha'tak fleet (with Jen'tak support of course) and preventing the complete shutdown issues of the past.

As for the Ori, I have great affection for them, though need to play with them quite a bit more (I tend to play the weaker races more often to figure out their trends and for a challenge) before I could make any assessments for balancing. I still feel very strongly that, even early game, they are extraordinarily powerful, though how to balance them since they are really a capital focused fleet is a bit of a mystery.

>--Drache-->

P.s. I agree the Vicious AI is hard to balance production and resource values against since neither really apply to them with their what I understand is a 14x bonus, it is however a great opponent to test fleet sustainability against, especially on small, few node point, concentrated maps that force early and often combat and the inevitable buildups that lead to dramatic and occasionally climactic conclusions.

Successfully updated karma reason!

there are any download links for older versions of this mod available?

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Raruto,

reply 1588

there are any download links for older versions of this mod available?

No, I have not posted any links to older versions of the mod. Only the current versions are available.

-dolynick

Successfully updated karma reason!

hey Dolynick, have you considered giving the Ancients the Destiny from SGU? would make a pretty cool mid-game capital i reckon

Successfully updated karma reason!

I was having lots of fun with this last night. I made a 4-player game vs 3 AIs. I chose the Ori race. While I was building up, the Wraith took two planets from the Ancients. I then kicked them out of Ancients territory and attacked the Ancients. While I was attacking the Ancients, Baal sent a massive fleet at the Wraith (Including an Anubis battleship). Every few minutes he also sent a single Alkesh at my planets just to annoy me.

And, of course, the technology I unlocked on my frontline planet just happened to be the #%$ "DeadlySecret" aka PlanetBonusGameOver. Fortunately I had a starbase with the prevent planet loss ability.

Good times all around lol

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Archaon6044,

reply 1590

hey Dolynick, have you considered giving the Ancients the Destiny from SGU? would make a pretty cool mid-game capital i reckon

I wouldn't include THE Destiny in the mod. I have, however, decided that if I were to ever get around to making a model for the Episcor capital ship (the small 75 supply cap), it would in essence be a descendant of the Destiny design/model. You have to remember that the Destiny in SGU is very, very old and is a precursor to the later Ancient ships (like the Aurora and Atlantis) I believe. They built it back when they were still seeding the galaxies with Stargates. It predates shield technology and hyperdrives. It doesn't make any sense for the Ancients to keep a ship like that in the fleet when the rest of the fleet is so much more advanced - An improved and modern version with a similar function, sure.

So if you ever wondered what the Episcor would/should look like if it had a proper model of it's own... Think of the Destiny for a basic shape but possibly with more of the later Ancient styling cues mixed in.

-dolynick

Successfully updated karma reason!

Hi, dolynick,

Here are the results of my searches about asserts, you already know some, as we talked about it on other threads, but i think you'll be surprised by some others. Many are minor like "projectile" instead of "beam" for some weapons and don't have a real effect on the game, but some causes things not to work properly as they should, but not causing dump.

- SGRaces-MainViewIcon-Ship
24 count for 25 brushes

ANCIENS

- Capitalship_ancientssupport
DamagePerBank:LEFT 45.0.000000            <----- 45.000000

- FrigateAncientsWarship
EngineSoundID "ENGINE_TECHCAPITALSHIP      <----- sound not working, missing " at the end

- FrigateAncientsTurretDroneDefense
    WeaponType "Beam"                    <----- Projectile
        TravelSpeed 0.000000            <---- must not be 0 for projectile weapon ( duration is 0 too so there is a problem for a beam too )

ASGARD

- AbilityAsgardTimeDiletion
isAutoCastOnByDefault False             <---- FALSE must be in capital letters

- Capitalship_asgardbattle, Capitalship_asgardbattleshipheavy, Capitalship_asgardcolony, Capitalship_asgardcolossus, Capitalship_asgarddreadnought, Capitalship_asgardsupport, Frigateasgardfortification, Frigateasgardlongrange, Frigateasgardsiege, Frigateasgardturretbeamdefense, Frigateasgardutility0, PLANETMODULE_ASGARDORBITALDEFENSE, Starbase_asgard, Frigateasgardheavy
WeaponType "Beam"                 <----- Projectile
Duration 4.000000                  <---- 0

- effect                                                                                    <----- missing entry in sounddata
    name "WEAPON_PHASECAPITALWAVELIGHT_MUZZLE_ALT1"
    fileName "Weapon_PhaseCapitalWaveLight_Muzzle_Alt1.ogg"
    type "Effect"
    is3D TRUE
    priority 5
    threshold 23000.000000
    minAttenuationDist 500.000000
    maxNumPlayingSimultaneously 5
    isLooping FALSE
    isResident TRUE
    minRespawnTime 0.1
    fadeInTime 0.0
    fadeOutTime 0.0
    alternateGroup ""

- Assert @ C:\Projects\P4\SinsDiplomacy\Release\CodeSource\GS/Entity/Interfaces/IBuff.cpp(2345)

(instantAction.instantActionTriggerType == InstantActionTriggerType::AlwaysPerform) || (instantAction.instantActionTriggerType ==   InstantActionTriggerType::OnChance)

- BuffAsgardCapitalShieldRegenerationSelf.entity

    buffInstantActionType "RestoreShieldPoints"
    instantActionTriggerType "OnDelay"          <----- AlwaysPerform or OnChance
    Delay 0.000000                               <----- remove

GOAULD

- Capitalship_goauldra
maxShadow 0.5 00000                   <---- space not required

- FrigateGoauldrepairplatform
squadTypeEntityDef:0 "SquadWraithCombat"            <---- SquadGoauldCombat ?
squadTypeEntityDef:1 "SquadWraithBomber"            <---- SquadGoauldBomber ?

- Assert @ C:\Projects\P4\SinsDiplomacy\Release\CodeSource\GS/Entity/EntitySystemHelpers.cpp(694)

starBaseName == sourceAbility->GetIAbilityPtr()->GetDef()->m_buffApplyAction.entityTypeToCreate

StarBaseGoauld
creationSourceAbility "AbilityDeployStarBaseTech"        <----- Intended ? "AbilityGoauldDeployStarBase" ?

ORI

- FrigateOriRepairPlatform
squadTypeEntityDef:0 "SquadAncientsCombat"            <---- Intended ?     SquadOriCombat ?
squadTypeEntityDef:1 "SquadAncientsBomber"            <---- Intended ?    SquadOriBomber ?

- AbilityOriConsecration
aiUseTime "OnlyInCombat"            <----- Must be "Invalid" for passive ability
aiUseTargetCondition "Any"            <----- Must be "Invalid" for passive ability
isAutoCastAvailable TRUE              <----- Must be FALSE for passive ability

- CAPITALSHIP_ORIBATTLESHIP, CAPITALSHIP_ORICARRIER, CAPITALSHIP_ORICOLONY, CAPITALSHIP_ORIDREADNOUGHT,   CAPITALSHIP_ORISCOUT, CAPITALSHIP_ORISUPPORT, FrigateOriBeamDefense, FrigateOriHeavy, FrigateOriSuperHeavy,     FrigateOriUtilityOffensive, PLANETMODULE_ORIORBITALBEAMDEFENSE, StarBaseOriCivilian
WeaponType "Beam"                     <----- Projectile

- Assert @ C:\Projects\P4\SinsDiplomacy\Release\CodeSource\GS/Entity/EntitySystemHelpers.cpp(694)

starBaseName == sourceAbility->GetIAbilityPtr()->GetDef()->m_buffApplyAction.entityTypeToCreate

- StarBaseOriCivilian
creationSourceAbility "AbilityDeployStarBasePsi"        <----- Intended ? "AbilityOriDeployStarBaseCivilian" ?

- StarBaseOriMilitary
creationSourceAbility "AbilityDeployStarBasePhase"        <----- Intended ? "AbilityOriDeployStarBaseMilitary" ?

WRAITH

- RESEARCH_PACTUNLOCK_CRYSTAL_WRAITH
    pactUnlockEntityDefName "RESEARCHSUBJECT_PACTBONUS_CRYSTAL"   <----- Not in use anymore in diplomacy 1.21, must be added manually to entity.manifest. RESEARCHSUBJECT_PACTBONUS_CRYSTAL is linked to this research and should be added to manifest too and string must be created too as it is not present in vanilla diplomacy string.

- BuffWraithSpawnMineStunOnSelf
    frigateType "FrigateWraithMineStun"            <---- file missing ? SpaceMineWraithStun ?

- FrigateWraithSupportPsionic, FrigateWraithScout, CAPITALSHIP_WRAITHCOLONY, FrigateWraithHeavyCruiser, FrigateWraithCarrier, FrigateWraithBattleship, FrigateWraithAntiFighter, FighterWraithInterceptor, FrigateWraithSupportMarshal, FighterWraithBomberLight, FighterWraithBomber, FighterWraithCombat, FrigateWraithWarmonger, StarBaseWraith,
    sound "WEAPON_PSICAPITALPLASMALIGHT_MUZZLE_ALT1"         <---- entry not existing in soundeffects.sounddata, ogg file neither, medium to replace ?
    sound "WEAPON_PSICAPITALPLASMALIGHT_MUZZLE_ALT2"        <---- entry not existing in soundeffects.sounddata, ogg file neither, medium to replace ?

- AbilityWraithDartFrenzy
    soundID "EFFECT_ILLUSIONFIGHTERS"             <---- entry not existing in soundeffects.sounddata, replace with "EFFECT_ILLUSIONSELFCOPY" ?


Files not in use ?

AbilityAncientDroneSwarm1, AbilityAncientDroneSwarm3, AbilityAncientGreaterDroneSwarm6, BuffAncientDroneSwarm1, BuffAncientDroneSwarm3, BuffAncientGreaterDroneSwarm6, SquadAncientsBomber2, SquadAncientsBomber3, SquadAncientsBomberd, SquadAncientsCombat2, SquadAncientsCombat3, SquadAncientsCombatd, SquadWraithBomber4, SquadWraithBomber8, SquadWraithBomberd, SquadWraithCombat4, SquadWraithCombat8, SquadWraithCombatd

Not fixed

- Assert @ C:\Projects\P4\SinsDiplomacy\Release\CodeSource\GS/Entity/Interfaces/IBuff.cpp(2124)

weaponEffectsDef.weaponType != WeaponType::Beam

For this one i understand that in a buff.entity there is a problem with a "beam" weapon, is that correct ?

As i have tested the 5 races separately i'm sure that it is a Wraith buff. The only Wraith buff i have found with weaponEffectsDef "Beam" is BuffWraithStarbaseIncinerationActivated but i don't know if there is something wrong, for me everything is ok ...

Here is the instantAction with the weaponEffectsDef :

instantAction
    buffInstantActionType "PlayPersistantBeamEffect"
    instantActionTriggerType "OnDelay"
    delayTime 0.000000
    hasWeaponEffects TRUE
    weaponEffectOriginType "Targetter"
    weaponEffectAttachInfo
        attachType "Ability"
        abilityIndex 0
    weaponEffectImpactOffsetType "RandomMesh"
    canWeaponEffectHitHull TRUE
    canWeaponEffectHitShields TRUE
    weaponEffectsDef
        weaponType "Beam"
        burstCount 1
        burstDelay 0.000000
        muzzleEffectName ""
        muzzleSoundMinRespawnTime 0.100000
        muzzleSounds
            soundCount 1
            sound ""
        hitEffectName "CapitalAbility_BeamBlastImpact"
        hitHullEffectSounds
            soundCount 1
            sound ""
        hitShieldsEffectSounds
            soundCount 1
            sound ""
        beamEffectSounds
            soundCount 1
            sound "EFFECT_BEAMBLAST_ACTIVATE"
        beamGlowTextureName "WraithPlasmaBeam_Glow"
        beamCoreTextureName "WraithPlasmaBeam_Core"
        beamWidth 1500.000000
        beamGlowColor ffffffff
        beamCoreColor ffffffff
        beamTilingRate 3.000000

To compare here is the BuffBeamBlastActivated from Vanilla

instantAction
    buffInstantActionType "PlayPersistantBeamEffect"
    instantActionTriggerType "OnDelay"
    delayTime 0.000000
    hasWeaponEffects TRUE
    weaponEffectOriginType "Targetter"
    weaponEffectAttachInfo
        attachType "Ability"
        abilityIndex 0
    weaponEffectImpactOffsetType "RandomMesh"
    canWeaponEffectHitHull TRUE
    canWeaponEffectHitShields TRUE
    weaponEffectsDef
        weaponType "Beam"
        burstCount 1
        burstDelay 0.000000
        muzzleEffectName ""
        muzzleSoundMinRespawnTime 0.100000
        muzzleSounds
            soundCount 1
            sound ""
        hitEffectName "CapitalAbility_BeamBlastImpact"
        hitHullEffectSounds
            soundCount 1
            sound ""
        hitShieldsEffectSounds
            soundCount 1
            sound ""
        beamEffectSounds
            soundCount 1
            sound "EFFECT_BEAMBLAST_ACTIVATE"
        beamGlowTextureName "CapitalAbilityBeamBlast_Glow"
        beamCoreTextureName "CapitalAbilityBeamBlast_Core"
        beamWidth 250.000000
        beamGlowColor ffffffff
        beamCoreColor ffffffff
        beamTilingRate 3.000000

The only differences are in line beamGlow, beamCore and beamWidth ...

- Assert @ C:\Projects\P4\SinsDiplomacy\Release\CodeSource\Engine/DataStructures/FixedArray.h(117)

i >= 0

This one pop up different number of time at each lauch, so i have no idea of what it is. I had it between 0 to 13 times at launching ...

Successfully updated karma reason!

If you need some portraits : Large

Successfully updated karma reason!

No ideas for those 2 asserts ?

- Assert @ C:\Projects\P4\SinsDiplomacy\Release\CodeSource\GS/Entity/Interfaces/IBuff.cpp(2124)

weaponEffectsDef.weaponType != WeaponType::Beam

- Assert @ C:\Projects\P4\SinsDiplomacy\Release\CodeSource\Engine/DataStructures/FixedArray.h(117)

i >= 0

Successfully updated karma reason!

hey dolynick long time fan of ur work and all just wondering when u gonna pass out the update for the 1.31 update and all

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting insaneindian,

reply 1596

hey dolynick long time fan of ur work and all just wondering when u gonna pass out the update for the 1.31 update and all

I've got new reference files and a general plan for what I would like to do for this update (not just a patch update this time). It's just a matter of finding some time to sit down and get working on it. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

-dolynick

Successfully updated karma reason!

Could u upload the entrenchment version of this mod please?

Successfully updated karma reason!

There will ba another hotfix coming out shortly, wait until 1.32 is out before working on it, as it will only break your mod again.

Unless you can afford the time

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Ben_Maxwell,

reply 1599

There will ba another hotfix coming out shortly, wait until 1.32 is out before working on it, as it will only break your mod again.

Unless you can afford the time

Another one?? Wth...

By the way, where did you get that information? There is certainly nothing mentioned on this board that I've seen.

Incidentally, I pretty much have all the mods updated as of this posting. There are some actual changes though and not just a compatibility update so I have some testing to do before I release.

-dolynick

Successfully updated karma reason!