Bronstein

Join Date 03/2007

3D Universe

Welcome gentlemen, (I use that term lightly)

. This is my first post; altho I have often perused (& enjoyed) the forum.

GalCiv II is NOT my favorite PC game; It is my ONLY PC game. Chessmaster 9000, & AOE 2, & Hoyle Casino, don't count (they are only on my computer for brief changes of pace).

I have seen a lengthy thread on suggested improvements for GC2 & agree with 90% of the suggestions. However: I am looking further into the future to an artistic & strategic masterpiece, - a GalCiv III.

To get to the point:

1. I believe that the MAJOR improvement for the finest space strategy game in the universe necessitates an advance to a realistic 3D Universe.

2. I believe the Universe can be modeled on the beautiful (if almost unplayable) RTS space strategy game Homeworld. Its universe, Motherships, & combat were beautiful. I would often boot the game up (just to see the Mothership & take it thru its first scenario goals - one more time). I played the first 2 or 3 scenarios almost as many times as I watched The Lord of the Rings.

3. In a Gal Civ 3, the combination of GC2s well thought out turn based strategy with a more realistic depiction of the Universe would comprise the finest PC game yet produced.

Tolkien wrote: "A single dream is worth a thousand realities."

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Have you seen Sins of a Solar Empire? It may be more what you're looking for, if you like both Homeworld and GC2. Beta starts for preorderers some time this month.

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I believe Solar Empire, like pretty much every 3D space game I have seen, is first-person 3D. What I'd like to see is more of an omniscient 3D. Like you've got the entire galaxy in a big cube, and you can zoom, pan, rotate it, and somehow manipulate your ships & planets inside. It's the same Galciv map, just in a third-person 3D.

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like pretty much every 3D space game I have seen, is first-person 3D.

First person would be like a shooter, and that is definitely not what Sins is like. In sins you can zoom all the way from viewing a single fighter up-close, all the way out to see the entire map. See this thread on the forum to get more of an idea what it's like.

Smart Scaling turns ships into icons based on the size of the individual unit. So before something becomes too small to easily see, it is turned into an icon. So big structures will remain "pretty" longer and the player can effectively have their cake and eat it too.

Zoom out enough and you will see your entire planetary system. Each planet has its own gravity well so you can't just zip into a given world and blow it up and leave. That line around the planet marks the extent of the planet's gravity well. Ships jumping through Phase Space must return to sub-light speeds once they get to the gravity well of a world.

So you want scale? Watch this:

Zoomed further...

And further. But look closely between the above screenshot and this one. This is Ironclad's Smart Scaling really showing off the goods. Rather than your units becoming a jumble of unmanageable units, they become individual pips. At a glance, you can see your strength in a given system which makes it much easier to manage fleets across a galaxy. You can still click on them if you want.

But let's keep zooming out...

Wow, look at all those planets. In the setup options, players can choose to play around just a couple of worlds or they can play in a star cluster. Yes, it gets bigger:

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Unfortunately, that creates a new world of possibilities, and would require a complete overhaul of the system, which might break the game. It is an interesting prospect, though. What about a three layer universe? Might work.

You ever played Star Control 3? That might give you an idea of how a 3D universe could work. I have to admit, this idea of a 3D universe worries me, but I get scared easily by change.

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One part of me feels like 3D is pretty much the only way to truly make an evolutionary change from Galciv2 to Galciv3. But I also remember what happened to Heroes of Might & Magic IV. I sunk way too much of my life into Heroes III, but then in Heroes IV they attempted to 3D it. Heroes IV sucked. I would never wish that on Galciv3.

I would just think that, if you can figure out how in the world to do the human interface for 3D, it would be really cool that now you have to look out for planets and ships above and below you; not just to the right and left of you. Influence borders are 3D blobs, not just circles. Awesome! That would beg the next question: do you fracture the galaxy up into a bunch of little cubes, and ships can now move diagonally in all 3 planes?

The problem I see with Star Control 3 is that is still more of a first-person 3D. First-person 3D is not limited to just action games.

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Thanks for the responses.

I imagine a workable 3-Dimension universe would be quite a leap for a turn based Space Civ game.

Most strategy gamers, (including me) could usually care less about glitz. We want a decently crafted game - first & foremost. However, when something even rarer than an honest politician, a decently crafted strategy game, is a reality, then one's thoughts turn to fancy (er. glitz).

The colors & much artwork in GC2 are quite nice. I would prefer a more surrealistic depiction of the planets' surfaces such as was done in MOO2 (where the surface views of the planets' construction projects expanded as the settlements grew & researched new improvements, & a more interesting depiction of land battles (such as is done in Slitherine's Ancient Civ wargames). However, on the whole, the artwork is nice & leaves one wanting MORE of the same, more beautiful depictions of outer space as is ever more possible on our High Def screens & high powered RIGGS. This is the 21st century; let's enjoy it.

Does anyone recall the universe ambiance as displayed in Homeworld? Was it nice? Am I off base here? If only the game had been more playable.

A Space PC game that is only 2 dimensional loses something in the translation. It demands a 3rd dimension. To create such a GC3 3 dimensional environment should not be so difficult, as Homeworld managed it some 7 years ago. I understand that other games have also mastered the 3D view of outer space. I just think Homeworld/Cataclysm did an exceptional job with the medium.

But I don't want to sound negative. I intend to get some time in playing GC2 tonite. It is enjoyable, has good quality visuals, & is highly playable, & the different difficulty levels allow -even clutzes like me- to do some conquering.

Yes, I wish we had Gaia & Santiago, with all their sexual energy, in GC2. Maybe if the developers can talk to Sid Meiers & get permission to borrow them for GC3..... But I digress.

The bottom line, is that with a successful Game design (such as GC2), I want Glitz & lots of it.

"A single dream is worth a thousand realities." Tolkien

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In the sense that glitz is just the artwork & other pretty stuff, I don't think 3D is glitz at all. I envision a genuinely 3D third-person strategy game. It adds a fundamental strategic element & new way of thinking. You no longer think in terms of expanding your empire N-S-E-W -- you're looking to expand along all 3 axes. Threats could be coming at you from all 3 axes. Starbases' areas of influence are spheres, not circles. Your survey ships looking for anomalies gets a lot more interesting. Star clusters cluster along 3 dimensions instead of 2, meaning they are going to be a lot more clustered than before. Everything changes.

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However, on the whole, the artwork is nice & leaves one wanting MORE of the same, more beautiful depictions of outer space as is ever more possible on our High Def screens & high powered RIGGS. This is the 21st century; let's enjoy it.

i think a basic reality to accept is that graphics will always lag behind top-end technology. not everyone can afford a high-powered machine, but game sellers still want to move as many units as possible.

of course, with a modable setup like GC2, high-res graphics mods are possible, which is a great middle ground if you ask me.

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Have you ever seen a diagram of the solar system? Its pretty flat. For that matter, so is the galaxy. The Galaxy is within like, ten degrees of the center all around. Sure their are multiple layers, probably a hundred systems deep, maybe more. But is it worth the complications? The headache? I don't think so.

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While I tend to agree with you, in that I would LOVE a game with a workable 3D interface\play area, did you ever play MoO3?

It had a 3D galaxy and while it was MASSIVE (basically the difference between a regular RTS and Supreme Commander) compared to all the other games, it was very hard to work with. While that is also partly due to the 'hyperspace' lanes or w\e they were, it is something of a gamble for developers. If you get it wrong, then it really doesn't matter how good the rest of the game is, it will not be very popular or playable. If you get it right, it is gorgeous and functional. However even then it will not be very accessable to rookies much less appealing. And while some people will say that it isn't being made for them (another concept I tend to agree with) game developers run a business and really cannot afford to become a niche developer (SSI anyone?)

Now, all that being said....I really would also like to see this done. And if Stardock does try this, I just have to ask that you guys REALLY take your time to do it right. GC2 is an amazing game because it is well thought out and executed.

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