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MOO3 debate

MOO3 debate

Hi, I've been wondering about MOO3 for awhile now. Seeing as how everyone here is a 4x strategy gamer, I was wondering why did everyone hated MOO3. I've been eyeing it at a store and I've been tempted to buy it. Seeing as how it is only 9$ now is it worth it, or is MOO2 better?
3,744 views 96 replies
Reply #76 Top
The intent of the designers was to remove the micromanaging aspects, early and late game.
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With all due respect, that's not correct.

Their intent was to put their own sense of cleverness on display, by designing a very intricate gameplay system and then also designing a brilliant artificial intelligence to automate it. They failed miserably on both counts.

This is a failure of the highest order at the level of design thinking. What is the purpose of a mechanism the player is not supposed to use? Eye candy, nothing more.

They wanted to give us a "game" chock full of programming eye candy. Where their automation fails (and it fails constantly, in almost every area) the player is lured into intervention, to step in and put things to right. Thus, the exact opposite is the result: a micromanagement nightmare straight out of the worst satire comedy sketch you could imagine.


The emphasis... is on actual planning and strategy as opposed to handling minutia.
End of quote


The way to accomplish this is to abstract all the elements that do not improve the gameplay.

Don't want players micromanaging the construction order of this vs that facility? Abstract facility types so they are all the same, or at most a couple of categories.

Don't want players micromanaging resource acquisition? Make everything run off of a single resource: cash. Then let player spend the cash in a handful of different ways with meaningful choices.

MOO3 did the stupidest possible thing. Instead of abstracting, it spent all its time and energy diving into the realm of all the parts that SHOULD have been abstracted, to flesh them out and animate them, but not for the player to actually get in there and do anything himself. Dumbest game concept ever. EVER. Not to mention the hubris of believing they could code an AI from scratch that would seamlessly manage all of the crap they tossed in there. IBM Blue couldn't manage that mess effectively.


For what it's worth (and I make no claim at being a good player), I've never beaten the AI after the patch, and this isn't even on the difficult levels.
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I envy you. For me, it's the opposite. I cannot lose at this game. It is completely inept.

Food is the primary commodity. The AI cannot possibly manage food as well as a skilled player. Even taking the races weakest on food and propping up the AI with bonuses that go beyond what is possible on the game's built-in settings, the poor AI still cannot compete.

The other problem is a cap on fleet size. There's a ten-TF limit per combat. The AI cannot possibly design ships as efficient as player's. Thus, ship to ship, the player's ships are better. Once player can field ten full TF's at a bottleneck, the AI cannot penetrate. They'll throw their fleets at your invincible fleet and take horrendous losses time after time. Thus, no amount of advantage to them gets them anywhere.

With a few rare exceptions, a skilled player can't lose at MOO3. CANNOT LOSE. Winning may be a royal load of work, but the outcome is inevitable when one cannot lose. It's just a matter of time. Some enjoy that kind of gaming. Some don't.

I participated in the modmaking. I did all I could to work around, fix, or resolve the game's fatal flaws. I gave up. Can't be done. Too badly broken. If either MOO1 or MOO2 had the same type of cap on fleet sizes, they'd be hopelessly broken, too. They'd be crap.

This is where "updating" the game betrayed MOO3. They wanted to make the combat more fun, more tactical, more intense, more interesting. And they did, except they also killed the strategy in the process. Problem is, this wasn't supposed to be a combat sim, a tactical game, or an eye candy demo. It was supposed to be a STRATEGY game. A pox on all their houses.


MOO1 got it right. MOO1 focuses the player onto the strategic elements by abstracting everything else.

MOO2 went down the dark road of micromanagement nightmare. I hated it. I hated it because the gameplay was all about repetition: the same paths through the tech tree, the same chase for Antaran technology, the same ENDLESS BORING process of repeating the construction order on world after world after world, like a zombie, like a machine crunching bits and bytes, that's how petty and small-scale the gameplay was. The player in MOO2 spends all his time micromanaging: the planets, the combats. It was a decent game, but they should have called it what it was: Master of Magic II. It had squat to do with the gameplay of Master of Orion.

What's the main difference between MOO1 and MOO2? MOO1 abstracted the details, leaving the player to focus on strategy. MOO2 delved down into the details, because it would be "cool" to flesh out the planets more, flesh out the combat more, flesh out the minutiae and bring those abstracted bits to life.

Well, you can't have both. You can't have strategy and also have minutiae. You only have an empire game when the options presented to the emperor are imperial options. If the player can get in there and make local decisions, then it stops being an empire game and becomes a local game. The idea of giving us an empire game with a self-automated local environment fully fleshed out has to be one of, if not THE, all time biggest design blunders ever undertaken in PC gaming.

That's my view of MOO3. Your mileage may vary.


- Sirian
Reply #77 Top
Actually i read once that a guy won it's first game of M002 at hardest difficulty without even expanding (custom race). He though the game had a lousy ai. I never win MOO2 at the hardest settings...I guess some people have got some luck by finding on their firts game the best way to win. I guess once you sorted this out, a game doesn't make so much sense.
I guess i am not a skilled player as i got beaten again and again by various options (Military, 5x and Senate victory). It also depends on what settings you play...it's harder to win on a small map with max enemies in contrast to Huge, 2 opponents and only Military victory as an option. But then again, a skilled human player will win any game (GALCIV, CIV3, MOO3, MOO2 and else). Even the brightest computers have difficulties to beat a skilled human chess player.
I agree on the fact that MOO3 isn't a great strategy game on the Military aspect. The fact that you have Space lanes killed that aspect for me (no surprise attacks anymore, no more key words in you really had to keep a fleet or else). However the global strategy of managing an Empire is there in my opinion.
I view the game on another level. I figure i am actually running an empire with subordinates. I almost never design a ship myself...why? because it's too much time wasted (about 10 System ships, 5 Orbitals and 10 Space ships everytime you get an effective new tech) and also because i accept the fact that actually i've got some kind of minister who's doing it for me. Are my ships weaker because i don't design them myself? yes. But hey! that's how life works too. If you're running a business, your subordinates can and WILL make mistakes. You cannot do anything. And that's the aspect of the concept that i did accept. The funny aspect of the strategy in MOO3 is that you have to include that aspect in your strategy. I'd be actually sad if everything my ministers and viceroy was perfect, cos then actually, all i would have to do it click turn again and again.
That's my view of MOO3.;)

Anguille
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Reply #78 Top
With all due respect, that's not correct.

Their intent was to put their own sense of cleverness on display, ... They failed miserably on both counts.
End of quote


... has to be one of, if not THE, all time biggest design blunders ever undertaken in PC gaming.
End of quote


I rarely give such categorical statements much consideration. The only thing I'll write with your level certainty, is that no one thinks the game is perfect and that many people love to play it. The latter is what matters.
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Reply #79 Top
...the biggest failure of this title as a military stategy game, is that you can basically tranport you ships across the galaxy in a small amount of time, if u have the right facilites built. That KILLS it. I becomes silly. No, Space Empires IV is by far the best 4X game, and it's still being worked on - the latest patch was just released. I f u want real-time and visual flare, go back to Imperum Galactica II, and if you have the hardware for it, double the screen resolution...
(Oh, and if u want SEIV from a different perspective, try out Starfury..!)
Reply #80 Top
I wouldn't agree about SEIV being the best. It might work for you, but I vastly prefer MOO 1. SEIV is far too fiddly for me.
Reply #81 Top
Too many little boxes and buttons.

Just a question about MOO3 how can you manage to build ships quick, I am being bombard by one of the AI's and my ship construction is like 1 every 900 turns. >:(
Reply #82 Top
@Renegade, were you able to get the game to work with the patch?

Your question is a difficult one to address simply. Going from memory, in the Empire screen set your military-economics policy to Holy War or slightly lower. This will push the Viceroys to free up much more money for ship production. But the effects are not immediately obvious.

Some suggestions:
1. Don't design ships at the maximum of your capability (design them 2-3 levels below what you can).
2. Focus only on the planets that have high production points.

By about turn 200 I can usually crank out 10 battle cruiser-sized ships (depends on the type of ship though) in 6-12 turns, but this is only on my most productive of planets.

3. Move this discussion over to the MOO3 forum. There's a big thread dealing with this very topic. Good luck.

http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=8ec92b3683c7ecc6d037c47013ee7ab7&threadid=268703&perpage=30&pagenumber=1
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Reply #83 Top
moo3 i only liked it after i download all the mods for it then it was fun to play
moo3 was not what i was hoping for after playing moo2 100+ times
Reply #84 Top
I ordered it from the US as I couldn't wait for it to come to OZ (MOO2 fan).

Played it once and then sold it.

Too many good games out there to waste time on this one. ;p
Reply #85 Top
Personally I thought it was a very interesting game. Not perfect, but not all that bad either. I'am suprised it got such a negative press. All that I can think of is that most people who bought it did not understand the difference between "micro" and "macro" management = it wasn't a game for them.
Reply #86 Top
Whoa, who resurrected this thread from the grave? :p

Moo3? It had a too few many issues for me.
Reply #87 Top
I bought GalCiv after Atari dumped MoO3- With a bit more work on another patch it could have been still good.

even at 1.2.5 the game was hella buggy. What pissed me off the most were the combat bugs like PD weapons not working and thus every battle evolving solely arround missiles and fighters.
Reply #88 Top
I rather enjoyed the depth of detail that was present in MOO3.

I didn't like the temporal aspect; it took dozens of turns to get anywhere, as my entire empire slowly crawled through the lanes. It would have been a lot more fun if the return on time invested was a bit higher.
Reply #89 Top
I bought MOO3 a while ago and found the use I got out of it was using the cd's it came with as coasters. Gal Civ is far and away the best 4X out there. :)
Reply #90 Top

The reason I'm on this forum is to figure out if I should buy GalCiv. Up to now I have played MOO2 and MOO3 and have immensely enjoyed both. The unpatched version of MOO3 was so frustrating I almost smashed the CD (but I'm better now, really ;) )

The official Atari/QSI forum is spectacular (as I also contribute content, perhaps I'm a bit biased)

Judging by the passion with which folks talk about GalCiv, it seems this game also inspires devotion. So far the focus seeems to be the wonderful comcept of the Metaverse and group scoring (nice!)

The fanfiction sections of the MOO3 forum is impressive (again, since I contribute, I'm biased), so I'm looking for the same or similar threads here. So far I haven't located equivalent fanfic.

What I am hoping for is a feature by feature comparison of the two games - good and bad, without getting too subjective (I know that editorializing and personal opinions are almost unavoidable, heck that's most of the fun on these forums).

e.g.
Shpbuilding...
GalCiv does it this way...
MOO3 does it this weay...
Races...
how many, why, strengths, etc
Research (or whatever is GalCiv equivalent)...
Tactical Combat...
etc. etc..

Can anyone help?
Reply #91 Top
I just started a MOO3 game again after reading this and a few other threads, and patching the game. I now know what I don’t like about MOO3 and some of what I do like.

So what's the problem IMO?
Too much detail with no reason other than adding complexity to the game mechanism. The game is a micro-managing hell, and has no macro-management tools. Let's say I figure I need a planet capturing TF I have to go in and design the various ships needed, (or accept the mediocre designs the AI proposes), second I have to locate the planets capable of producing the various components of my TF, and then persuade the governors to guild the stuff. When that is finally accomplished I have go to the Ground Troop assembly section assemble the troops (no indication on the carrying capacity needed) then press next and get to the fleet screen and assemble my TF (again no indication of carrying capacity). After a few switches back and forth to match the available space and required space, I finally have my TF.

What should have been the case was I tell an admiral to assemble a TF to my specs, and he makes sure the ships and personnel are either built/trained or gathered from available reserves, and informs me where and when the TF is ready. Why do I have to fiddle with production and other tasks that a computer should be much better at than me? I want to explore and conquer the galaxy not fight the bureaucracy. The ships and troops are placed in a common pool anyway so why bother with where they are built? And why can’t I replace units in a TF without having to send them all back to the reserve, and then create a new TF from scratch.

The above is just an example, the same principle holds for other aspects of the game.
Colonization: why can’t I see the planets suitability for any given race, and why do I have to bother with it. I want the AI to figure out where the most suitable of my races are and build a colony ship there, and then send it to the planet ASAP. Oh and why bother with moons when they are just regions of the planet anyway. After all, humans could conceivably live on a moon orbiting a Jovian planet, but there is no way they could live on the planet itself.

Oh and don’t get me started on that stupid real-time combat system. How come I know of all ships in the system while light-years away, but when I’m fighting them I have to use valuable time hunting around the map for tiny icons while the computer promptly sends his missiles and fighters at me?

What I like the most is the diversity of races, they do feel alien, and they have different traits that make it worthwhile having an empire with a large variety of races. That’s something that’s missing in GalCiv.
I also like the concept of putting that AI in control of colony management.
Reply #92 Top

Personally I thought it was a very interesting game. Not perfect, but not all that bad either. I'am suprised it got such a negative press. All that I can think of is that most people who bought it did not understand the difference between "micro" and "macro" management = it wasn't a game for them.
End of quote


Actually, I bought the game, and I fully understand the difference between "Macro" and "Micro" management.

Macro management involves giving general orders (e.g. telling a fleet to move to this location), and having all units within that fleet go there (as well as having units assigned to reinforce the fleet.) Micro management involves providing orders to individual units.

Personally, I don't mind micromanagement provided that it does not interfere with other activities. Thus, I should be able to queue up a large quantity of build orders without having to check back to ensure that the construction facilities are at optimal usage. I find that too many games are falling to this trap - MoO3 is one of them, especially when you had to check back on a building queue each turn to make sure that it is producing the items you intend to build (and not doing something wrong like building 1xInfantry.), as well as to ensure that the build queues are properly stocked.

Only recently have I seen games making attempts to make micromanagment easy, and even then, there are very few of such games. In most cases, the games suffering from major micromanagement issues are easily fixed through one change (perhaps I should start producing a list.)
Reply #93 Top
Moo3 - most dissapointing game in human history.

They hired the completely wrong devs for the game basically and they changed the game so drastically that it could hardly be called a sequel plus there are many problems i have with it.

There was/is an insane amount of bugs.

The battles sucked, should of kept with the old turn based style. Afterall most people dont play this type of game online.

The AI was not very smart.

Spys were annoying (deaths) and the same with "heros". Should of left it as it was in 2, which is simular to how Galciv is.

The UN of the game hardly worked and was only an annoyance.

Very few people like this game and most of them who do are fanboys or are unable to see the mass amounts of flaws and are in denial because they were fanatically obsessed with the 2nd ro 1st game. If you want to play a real strategy game that is both smart and good go get Space Empires 4 Gold, its not only more simular to how Moo2/1 were but its far better than Moo3 if you want to play a space strategy game. I'm actually very dissapointed that Moo3 sucked so badly and was literally flamed off the bored for ripping on how they were developing the game when it was in early beta (like with IFPs) but i guess thats what happens when game company's dont listen to the fans even though they said they would.



I could go on for hours on a post about this game as i played moo2 from when it came out til about 2002 and was highly anticipating 3 but i wont, its done and over with and its not like i have to prove myself right that it does/will suck like back in the beta days.

They should of just of made MOO2 but with updated graphics and more technologies, victory conditions, diplomacy options and better AI, instant hit best seller right there. I guess Hasbro/Atari was just simply stupid for not using Simtex.

In the end Moo2 was a great game and i would still be playing MOO3 now if it was akin to the 2nd game. Whats funny is that Moo2 is considered by many to be one of the best games of all time and the 3rd is considered to be one of the worst. Whats funny is that with my moderate ability in programming i believe i could create a better sequel with people i know.

BTW MOO2 didn't have much micromanagement. Like changing what workers are doing one (farming industry science) was really that hard and complicated. Autobuild worked very good as well. Anyone who says they hated MOO2 because of micromanagement should explain how it is so, because it seems like nonsense. It was even far less micro than Civilization 2 and simular games. Everyone who says they refused to play it because of that simply makes me laugh because its utterly unbelievable and ridiculous.


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Reply #94 Top
oh ya, supposidly there is a fanproject on sourceforge that is remaking master of orion 2 but fixing the few flaws the game had. I've lost the link since then but i'm sure someone still knows where it is. I wonder how far they are in that project.

EDIT: found it http://www.freeorion.org/
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Reply #95 Top
after reading all of the preceding posts a few things come to mind
1) several post insist on comparing MOO3 and galciv as if thay were ment to be simmilar thay are not altho thay have the same concept (space baced TBS) thay both went down different roots galciv was ment to apeal to newcomers and veteruns to the genre also having an efisis on humer MOO3 was met to appeal to hardcore stratigists who like it when thay are up to there elbows in manegement
2) yes moo3 is full of bugs dispite the paches but the game is playable if you like that sort of game
3) the AI on moo3 is bad so i dont use it if i can help it (i.e design my own ships tern of planitary ai and manege them myself etc)
overall i prefer galciv but i think moo3 is ok maby after another few patches and maby an expantion pack to fix the problems it will be a good game
Reply #96 Top
End of quote


1. Simtex was closed long time ago.
2. The Company choosen was probably a mistake...at least it wasn't well managed.
3. Release version is a shame. It's also a shame that they released only one patch (this patch, however, solves a lot of problems)
4. MOO3 wasn't the game i expected either. I enjoyed MOO & MOO2 a lot too and was looking for a similar kind of experience. MOO3 is very different concept. However, with patch 1.2.5 and Bhruic's mod, MOO3 is one of my favorite games along with GalCiv (These games are so different). It's one of the most complex games (along with Victoria) that i've played...it's normal that there are still some bugs around.
5. I am not a fan boy.
6. I am not buying SE IV at full price...i prefer to wait for SE V due out next year.
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