"Our incredible ability in diplomacy gives us a great advantage" = B.S.

"A fair deal would be Communications Theory for Defense Theory straight up"

Bull. Defense Theory leads directly to the first military vessels of the game (Defenders). With it, you're invulnerable to really early "rush" tactics. Comm Theory, while useful, isn't nearly as militarily important.

- Ash


~SDC~

Hmm... I should add (damn, I want an edit button): it's not the AI having an unfair advantage, it's the AI valuing technology differently than you do. You think Comm Theory is as valuable as Defence Theory; it disagrees. Just like a human could, and probably would.

- Ash

~SDC~

yeah, in all the games i played, defense theory is highly valued.

I think the AI will still only agree to deals that are in it's favor. For example, I tried a straight cash for cash trade; I give them 40, they give me 35 and got the same "this is a good deal HOW?" Umm, it's free money? I had to offer 60 for their 35 to get them to agree. I guess their money is better than mine... I assume this applies to all kinds of trades. However they quantify the value of a trade, they won't agree unless they get the better end of the bargin, i.e., no even swaps.



~SDC~

"I assume this applies to all kinds of trades. However they quantify the value of a trade, they won't agree unless they get the better end of the bargin"

Wait, you mean the AI is actually looking out for ITSELF more than it's looking out for a fair chance for the player? Sweet.... although you might want to post that cash-for-cash deal in the bug thread, there should be some exception code built into trade AI to deal with no-lose circumstances like that.

- Ash

~SDC~

There's something wacky about some of the theory techs. It's almost impossible to trade for them, especially industrial theory. I've seriously had to pay less for Shields than industrial theory.

Solution: Research them instead. It'll take 1 turn or so.

It has been my observation that the aliens will not part with the original tech in any category without a great deal of persuasion. Several other techs, most notably corvette technology are also valued highly.

However, you do not need to aquire technology in order. ie: you may trade for phasers and photons without ever seeing weapons theory. I've actually played several games where I traded for shields and battleships, and left every other military tech alone.

As for the other example, offering 40 in exchange for getting 35, I agree with the poster that a better AI would to see that as a gift, and treat it accordingly.

I think that there should be more even trades especially if you have an "incredible advantage"

Yes, in one game I found that the AI refused to trade me defense theory even for huge numbers of techs offered.

Same thing when i tried to trade for battleship tech. Seem like military techs get valued a lot more by the AI.

Vigo,
I agree. The dichotomy between what my diplomatic ability was purported to be and what trades were offered is my main complaint.

However, if Defense Theory is so easy to get, then why would it be valued so greatly? And, honestly, Universal Translator is far more valuable because it allows the AI to immediately start trading with other races.

The cash-for-cash inequity mentioned makes obvious the inherent advantage given to the AI on the diplomatic screen.

This is not a feature to be touted if a key selling point of the game is that the AI doesn't "cheat"

Another thing that influences trades is what they think about you. You may be offering them a deal of a lifetime, but if they don't like you they will refuse it on principle (until you offer more). This is a very human like tactic (used in risk especially) where humans will pay more money or not deal with another human just out of spite.

I've noticed that the AI doesn't seem to want to part with any of the initial "theory" techs. That doesn't seem to make sense.

I can certainly understand why the AI would not want to trade away techs that allow a new class of starship.

"The cash-for-cash inequity mentioned makes obvious the inherent advantage given to the AI on the diplomatic screen."

I don't see how it makes any "advantage" obvious. What it makes obvious is that the AI has a personality that is highly self-centered. It isn't interested in making "fair" trades (why should it be?), it's interested in making trades that benefit IT. If the trade is fair, there is a zero-sum gain in advantage for the AI... so what was the point of the trade in the first place?

I think the coding (which apparently operates on an 'advantage threshold', below which the AI won't make the deal) needs a little work to help the AI realize when trades are advantageous, but it doesn't have anything to do with the AI getting an advantage over the player. It's just being selfish and protecting it's technological lead, just like the player does.

- Ash

~SDC~

thonqor,

kindly play the game more. diplomacy is already too easy for something like this to be toned down. defense theory is valuable. it isn't an unfair advantage to not want to trade with you, they're the same way with each other.

~SDC~

"I've noticed that the AI doesn't seem to want to part with any of the initial "theory" techs. That doesn't seem to make sense."

It does in the early game. The AI thinks "these humans know NOTHING about defending spaceships... so why should we help them get started?" But I agree, later in the game, when it's obvious you have the capacity to gain that knowledge in a very short time, the AI should lower the value of the tech.

- Ash

~SDC~

"kindly play the game more. diplomacy is already too easy for something like this to be toned down."

wtf kind of ignorant logic is that? Since diplomacy is "too easy", that justifies stacking the deck in favor of the AI?

One of the key selling points of this game for me was that the AI was so smart that it didn't need any advantages to compete with the human player. Now that we see that it does get an advantage, you think it's OK because diplomacy is "too easy"

Well maybe the diplomacy exploits should be fixed without simply giving the AI a direct bargaining advantage.

And no, they do not apparently treat each other the same way since newly-acquired techs quickly find their way to all 5 races.

"Since diplomacy is "too easy", that justifies stacking the deck in favor of the AI?"

You're missing his point. He's saying play more because we HAVEN'T "[seen] that it does get an advantage". I'm tired, so I'm going to be blunt: he's saying play more because your initial post is 100% wrong. The AI doesn't get an unfair advantage in diplomacy, it simply behaves like a human, as we've been saying. Once you've played more, you'll understand that.

"And no, they do not apparently treat each other the same way since newly-acquired techs quickly find their way to all 5 races."

Like I just said somewhere else, you're jumping to conclusions. You don't have enough evidence about the AIs trades amongst themselves to make that call. For all you know, there's cash involved in their own deals. Maybe they sell colony ships to each other. Etc.

- Ash

~SDC~

The AI is playing smart. If I had defence theory, and someone wanted to trade it straight up for comm theory. hell no. I have to power get ships, I will just take comm theory from them.

No, the AI is not playing smart. It's playing hard to get with the player. The very fact that someone couldn't get the AI to take an even cash-for-cash deal makes this as obvious as the nose on your face. I dunno; maybe you have a small nose.

I offered Comm Theory, Universal Theory AND 600+BC before it would say "yes". For something as easy to get as Defense Theory? gimme a break.

Now imagine if the AIs did this to each other. There would be no trades. Why? Because they would both be expecting the *other* AI throw in an extra tech or ship to "even the deal". It's a freaking logical impossibility, guys.

Oh wait, I'm a clueless newbie who hasn't played the game long enough. LOL

I have no play examples here, just a musing from reading this thread but I wonder if the AIs know when they are dealing with the player or with an other AI.

If they can't tell the difference and if they always want more then they give then they would never be able to deal with each other. (except under some threat or extortion)

So either they can make fair trades (roughly equal in some way) with the player some of the time or they deal differently with each other then they do with us mere humans.


Elrikk


~SDC~

I've stepped up to bright and I couldn't trade jack-for-squat. I suck.

/ds

I suppose the whole algorithm is stg like :
1/ AI evaluate value of deal
2/ Then decide to agree (green) if received value = X% of given ,with X maybe like 150-200% base.

In 2nd step modifiers are applied - So if "we have a great advantage" base is reduced to maybe 120%, but it still won't agree to give 35/receive 40 !

And it's kinda normal that techs with same research costs are valued differently, indeed some are more useful than others : the fact is that I happily trade my comm and social techs and not my defense/weapons ones !

I have made pretty even deals before. Even deals that in my opinion were lopsided in my favor. The basic idea is the AI looks out for itself. You will only get even deals if you and the ai are very good friends. The worse your releationship the more losided in favor of the ai the deals will be. Also your strength compared to theirs seems to have some ffect. I have found that AIs that were weak compared to me would make quite nice trades. All the 40/35 money deal shows is that the ai wants more for itself, therefore is acting more like a human player would.

~SDC~

I think the way to put all these arguments to rest sort of would be to make the AI give you better reasons why it's doing things and make things more transparent to the player.

~SDC~

I have a problem with the idea that the it's okay for the AI to *always* get the better of a deal when you get the notification that your diplomatic ability is far superior to theirs. If you're equal or not as good at it, sure. But if you can sell snow on Hoth, I don't see why it should be hard to get a fairly even deal out of the AI - or one that's in your favor.

~SDC~