Thanks for not using starforce :) » Forum Post by b_o_n_z

Though I've begun to see almost every post by folks as some kind of sick viral campaign. I do have to agree here, that I like their approach. That and I won't EVER put a game on my comp that uses Starforce copy protection. Why would I do that when folks here at Stardock trust me.

And that's why I'll preorder, and download direct.

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Amen Brother

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i think that it is kinda funny that having no copy protection will actually get more money to the company than having copy protection but hey it makes snese when u c the logic behind it

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w00t

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Perhaps someone should try to submit an article to Slashdot about the no copy-protection thingie?

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Annekynn

Join Date 06/2004

+3

One of the biggest selling points in me buying GalCiv 1 was that it had no copy protection. FINALLY some game producer that GETS IT. I bought the expansion, and I bought GalCiv2. I didnt even play the expansion (didnt have the time), but I still bought it to support the company for making the right games, the right way. Kudos.

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http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/1851065692/m/7031018114

That's my post on the ubisoft using starforce issue. It's amazing how many publishers are too stupid to understand that cd-protection only screws over the honest people. The morally bankrupt ones would never buy your software in the first place.

Kudos to stardock for being smarter than 100% of the other game developers and publishers out there.

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I ended up tossing my copy of Silent Hunter III AFTER I realized it had starforce copy protection. As a consumer, I was pissed that I had something like that installed on my PC, treating me as a criminal for having legitimately purchased Ubisoft's product. So thank you, Brad et al. for realizing that those who will pay, pay...and those who steal, will steal and there's no need to screw over the legitimate customers like ourselves. Ubisoft and everyone else (including the music industry) need to realize they're only compounding their existing problems. Anyway. can't wait for the game to arrive in the mail.

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S'funny. I heard all about that starforce and rootkit stuff a while ago. I really like Silent Hunter III. I wouldn't trash a game because of it. Although I understand all of the issues that people have with it. You know what? I have more important things to worry about than that. I will keep SH3 on my system. I also have HL2 and use Steam. I don't like it. And when something that can wipe the rootkits without killing my games shows up, I'll use it. I have Rootkit Revealer on my comp. I could kill all the rootkits. And I'd be killing a few games that I like.

The bottom line to me is that you have to put up with some crap in this imperfect world. If you're so adamant about not having anything on your computer that you don't want, okay, don't install certain games. But that WILL NOT stop people from making games with that crap in them.

And you might as well delete all of your cookies and raise your security to the point that you're running a system that doesn't allow you to do ANYTHING without several layers of "are you sure you want to do this?" warnings.

Not me. I'll live dangerously. I let this site store a cookie so that I don't have to log in every time. I could stop it, but it saves me time. I'm not worried.

If and when the Illuminati find out that I have World Domination Plans on my comp, I dare them to come on by. I might have a few surprises for them at Casa RichVR.

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The bottom line to me is that you have to put up with some crap in this imperfect world. If you're so adamant about not having anything on your computer that you don't want, okay, don't install certain games. But that WILL NOT stop people from making games with that crap in them.

Well, as it is my money they want they'd better stop using crap protection like StarForce on their games...

I had a smiliar experience on the X3 board - I originally wanted to buy the game, but after hearing that it uses CrapForce as copy protection I simply canceled my order. Funny thing is that the publisher closed most of the forum accounts that complained about the protection scheme of the game - go figure.

I think StarDock is right on track with GC2 - reward the buying customer with extra content and no hassle. Sad that other companies walk the line of "the customer is our greatest enemy".

If a copy of the game is more hassle free and more secure (rootkits, etc.) than the original, why bother buying it?

So, kudos to StarDock and keep up the good work!

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Well, as it is my money they want they'd better stop using crap protection like StarForce on their games...

I agree, but only to a point. For each person like you who doesn't purchase a game because of Starforce, there are 10,000 people who don't care. The people that don't buy their products aren't stopping anyone but themselves from playing games that they would otherwise enjoy.

Please understand, I'm not a pro-starforce shill. I hate all forms of copy protection and especially those that are unnecessarily intrusive. I'm a big hater of all Sierra products. They install a bunch of "utilities" on your comp that you can't uninstall unless you uninstall their product first.

Sure, Stardock is right on the money (in more ways than one). But no publisher is gonna stop putting crap on their install disks just because you "protest" by not buying their product.

They will just factor that into their cost and raise the price. And people will still buy it.

Tilting at windmills never fixed anything. People in general are complascent and ignorant. But keep fighting the good fight. Somebody has to.

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Well, as it is my money they want they'd better stop using crap protection like StarForce on their games...

I agree, but only to a point. For each person like you who doesn't purchase a game because of Starforce, there are 10,000 people who don't care. The people that don't buy their products aren't stopping anyone but themselves from playing games that they would otherwise enjoy.

Please understand, I'm not a pro-starforce shill. I hate all forms of copy protection and especially those that are unnecessarily intrusive. I'm a big hater of all Sierra products. They install a bunch of "utilities" on your comp that you can't uninstall unless you uninstall their product first.

Sure, Stardock is right on the money (in more ways than one). But no publisher is gonna stop putting crap on their install disks just because you "protest" by not buying their product.

They will just factor that into their cost and raise the price. And people will still buy it.

Tilting at windmills never fixed anything. People in general are complascent and ignorant. But keep fighting the good fight. Somebody has to.

Of course you're right - sadly so many people seem to just put up with everyting the media industry throws at them (don't get me started about HD-DVD/BlueRay and their great new DRM schemes, for example) without thinking twice.

And sure, I'll "miss" a few games because of that - but besides a wife, two kids and a cat there's only so much time that I can dedicate to gaming. And for that I can (and will) pick from those publishers who give me no hassle and don't treat me like a potential criminal.

Besides that I convince my friends to stay clear of StarFoce games and try to teach my kids to look behind the veil of good marketing and see the real deal.

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I hate copy protection but I definitely see a need. There are many real fans who won' t pay for a game unless they're forced to; it's a fact of the Internet-era, I-should-get-everything-for-free-because-I'm-entitled-to mentality. Stardock is different because its games are catered to a well-established, hardcore audience. People like you and I are willing to financially support this company, but then again, 4X is well established and we know exactly what we're getting. Companies that make derivative sequels (Doom 3, etc.) and companies that experiment and innovate with completely new genres not quite understood by the industry both get screwed. Of course, the former should get screwed; I WANT Britney to not get financial compensation for her derivative crap. But truly experimental stuff without an established hardcore audience will get pirated left and right without enthusiastic users to support the company and get it to survive past the first release. That kills innovation. And it should be noted that game companies often use revenues from the derivative crap to fund the innovative stuff.

Besides, 4X is also in a different demographic. We tend to be more mature and to have more disposable income. Therefore, the risk of piracy is far less. Could you imagine a game targeted to teens surviving without copy protection? They don't have money. We do. And games with criminal themes would never get honest support. GTA San Andreas was a great game, but if it could have been pirated, it would have. It's like Abbie Hoffman's "Steal This Book". The title says it all.

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As a PAYING customer of civ4 I use a work around just to skip the infernal CD check... makes me feel like a criminal. Heck I'd buy 5 copies of civ4 just on account it's that 'Hall of Fame' of a game, if not for the cd check stuff. As is now I'm just going to use tax returns to buy whatever else star dock makes just to say thanks for skipping protection.

object desktop ja, what else lol.

I'll see about starting a gal civ 2 SG over at civfanatics in a month or btw I mean it is about CIV fanatics right?

Anyway feb 21 is coming far too soon, civ 4 still doesn;t want to share my freetime with anyone else!!!!

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GTA San Andreas was a great game, but if it could have been pirated, it would have.

There is no game that is released that isn't eventually pirated.

Really what it comes down to is companies using their resources to delay pirating activity as long as possible. They have nice reams of studies that show the longer the delay on pirating, the more that game makes.

Granted, I personally think thats a load of bunk. If someone isn't going to pay $50 for the game in the first place.. they probably won't buy it after a few days anyway.

As far as the innovative ideas and designs thing goes, thats also a lord of horse pucky. Yes it's difficult to get those games to garner attention, but imagine if a really good game without a marketing budget came along. You downloaded it and played it and then told all your friends about it. Now at least you have an innovative game with some word of mouth appeal, previously you had an innovative game without a market. Some few would most definitly even buy it if they liked it as well.

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Well Homm 5 was a "buy" for me. Simply I will observe it now becaue yes "Starforce".

- Ubisoft puts in its "Eula" that they are not responsible for any problems with Starforce => complaints should be directed at the "Starforce customer " support

- Starforce homepage claims that there aren´t any problems. These are only claims from "international piracy groups" . Hmmm, how much support can I expect if I have some problems?

- Starforce remains on your system even after you uninstalled the game (You need special tools to remove it)

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I completely disagree that a person who pirates wouldn't have bought it if forced to. Back when I was in high school and didn't have disposable income, I pirated lots of great games. These were games like MoM, MOO, Civ, and CivII, the kinds of games that I wished I supported. If I were forced to buy back then, I would have found some way to scrape up the change to do it.

It takes a special kind of person to consciously say "Oh, this is a great game; I really should support the company." That attitude is a lot less common than most of us would like to believe.

Throw in a game like GTA and its target market and you get petty criminal delinquents like my friends who pirate it just to "stick it to the man". 4X is a different breed. I think there's far fewer of us who want to "stick it" when we're roleplaying "the man".

As for the innovation, that's what demos and shareware are for.

Of course every game gets pirated. But companies should maximize their revenue. Otherwise games don't get made because the ROI isn't there.

I really hope Stardock and GalCiv II doesn't get hurt by piracy. Of course they will; every company does. But the "we trust you" policy is much less of a factor than the fact that it's a widely anticipated category killer in a well-established genre that primarily appeals to a demographic and psychographic that (I believe) is less prone to piracy in the first place.

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Well, I can only talk from my perspective. As a kid I had a C64 and lot of pirated games. Still I bought many games even then. Now as an still gaming adult with quite a good income I don´t want trouble. I don´t want to spent time around to look for pirated versions of a game etc.

Time is for me important and I like my things convinient and easy.

Point is the easy availabilty of software as a kid got me hooked on computergames.

As an adult I am a quite good customer.

A copy protection which prevents me from playing / hazzels me to carry around disks all the time , even doesn´t uninstall and in a worst case messes up my computer is not convinient.

Although I come to appreciate good customer support and as an adult you come to respect more the intellectual work of other people.

I simply doubt claims of for example the music industry : 1.000.000 copied songs on P2P are not automatically 1.000.000 x 1$ robbed because I doubt that most of these people would have bought the songs if there wasn´t any other way to get them. Other studies show that people who copy a lot of songs although buy more then the average customer.

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It really comes down to convenience and quality. But convenience is for the wealthy. College kids have plenty of time and not a lot of money, so what do they do? Waste hours finding a cracked torrent. And protecting IP is one of those issues that you only really get religion about if you have a white-collar job that creates IP. For many, especially kids, the need simply isn't there. A teenager working at Cinnabon just assumes that programmers like us make a fortune and have cushy jobs.

I hate copy protection that invades my system. I hate copy protection that burns out my sensitive drive. But I see the need. I just wish there were better mechanisms.

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I hate copy protection that invades my system. I hate copy protection that burns out my sensitive drive. But I see the need. I just wish there were better mechanisms.

Is convenience really for the wealthy only? If I shell out 50 bucks for a game (and I don't think this is cheap - even if I can afford a couple of games per month) why do I have to put up with all that protection hassle?

The problem is, as others already stated, that the industry uses the formula
1 copy = 1 missing sale
which is complete nonsense anyway. He wouldn't have bought it in the first place (either he can't afford it or he just doesn't care) so it is a moot point discussing missing sales.

From a customer perspective I use the formula
Intrusive Copy Protection = No $ale

As long as the industrie doesn't get their heads out of their ~#@! and start realizing that the only ones they punish with their protection schemes are the customers who already shelled out money for their product this can only lead to even less sales (and according to industry logic - more copy protection).

The best method to generate sales, imo, is giving the customer an incentive to buy the game. In the early years you got nice boxes, cloth maps, nicely done manuals, etc. (Infocom goodies anyone?) - now you get a DVD case with a cd, no manual (print the pdf yourself) and a BigBrother copy protection and maybe forced product activation on top of it. Hello? Am I the only one who thinks something is wrong here?

So once again I have to say StarDock is right on track for me:
Collectors edition, TechTree, Bonus content for customers, great support and no protection that treats me like a potential criminal.

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I completely disagree that a person who pirates wouldn't have bought it if forced to. Back when I was in high school and didn't have disposable income, I pirated lots of great games. These were games like MoM, MOO, Civ, and CivII, the kinds of games that I wished I supported. If I were forced to buy back then, I would have found some way to scrape up the change to do it.

Actually, I think you would find that attitude is more common then you think it is. First of all, I'm a reformed pirate. Disposable income, the fact that I'm far past 'youthful indescretions' and that I don't have this semi-obessive need to get a game on the first day all contributed to that. In my time I had downloaded many many games. In Middle and High school I didn't really care who made it, I just wanted a new way to amuse myself. In College I started being more discretionary and a bit more ethical in my 'pirate' list. For instance if I really liked a game, I would buy it. This went to about 20% of the games I trialed. Sometimes I just didn't have the funds, other times the copy protection scheme pissed me off, and a few times it was because I didn't have the right hardware. After college I stopped downloading every game I came across and bought more.. closer to 50-60%. I also stopped buying them the day of. Now some games I've been so excited about I've practically vibrated and bought the second I could find it. A couple of times this lead me to download the game just so I could play it a few days before the box arrived.

I can tell you many games that I've bought that I really wish I hadn't touched. I can tell you of even more games that I've bought that lasted about 5 hours in novelty and went downhill like a roller coaster.

Before I digress too far into pirating, let me agree with one really good point. A 4X game's audience is less likely to pirate a game. We've all come to realize the addage "If you can't do the time, don't do the time" something that maturity brings and being 18 doesn't.

As for demos and shareware, most demos are very limited in scope. They tend to come out weeks and months behind the actual game. Shareware is nonexisistant in any major software title. I think manufactureres of RTS's are getting it now as they actually release demos before the game launches. (See Battle for Middle Earth II and Empire at War).

Also, once again GTA was pirated. I bet more PS2 games are pirated then PC games these days.

Really software (not music) pirates come down to several catagories

1) Those who crack games for the challenge/recognition
2) Those who collect games
3) Those who trial games before buying
4) Those who wouldn't buy all the games they downloaded anyway
5) Those who just flat out want free stuff.
6) Those who want MP at a Lan party but couldn't care less otherwise.

The first group will probably ignore Gal Civ 2. It's copy protection free and most of them respect companies with good products. They are the ones who are the top of the Pirate chain as well. Gal Civ 2 will be distributed however, some independant person will put it on their bit torrent site and it'll get shared like every other App (good or bad) out there does.

The second group is fairly small, but generally they like to download games play them a few times and then put them away. I doubt many in this group would buy a game they played unless they really got sucked into it. These are more along the thoughts that they don't want to spend $50 bucks on a game they only play a few hours. Even really good games this group tends to not play for long periods of time.

Similar to above, but are looking for reasons to buy a game and not get gyped 50 bucks. I used to fall into this catagory more often then not. The difference between the two is I think the 'collector' is less likely to buy a game then the 'demoer'

In the free category, I know of several friends who would never buy a game unless forced to. I never copy games for them as it violated my (twisted) moral code I had developed in my piracy. They are also the ones who tend to be the worst pirates by using things like Kazaa. They are also the ones likely to have modded X-Boxes, PS2s and are subscribed to as many online movie housees so they can pirate DVDs like mad.

The last catagory I think is really growing. For instance, when Command and Conquer came out, it had 2 disks and either could be used multiplayer. This solved a lot of people wanting to play with their friends. Now, most games don't do this and everyone needs to own a copy. This makes for collusion to copy and crack games far greater as everyone wants their buddies to play. This was the other catagory I used to fall in.

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so what was that all about? Mostly to point out that all pirates aren't there to try to rip off companies, many of them just don't want to be ripped off themselves. It's also to point out that piracy is a silly statistic. There is no way to judge if one person would buy a game versus pirating it as no method has been developed to measure intent.

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I was a huge fan of the X-series and didn't buy X3 because of StarForce. I am very happy Brad made the decisions he made and from what he said on Poweruser TV it all sounds very logical and straightforward to me. I have huge respect for game companies that are as straight with their customers as Stardock is. Sadly, Stardock is the only one of the ones I knew that didn't went under the wheels - let's all work on it that it stays that way! I keep telling everyone I know about SD and GalCiv, that's my share (and I preordered GC2 of course).

I love games where I don't need to futz around with no-cd cracks. I don't pirate games, ever, but I still need to do that so's I don't have to carry around a CD case thats bigger than my gaming laptop... I love GC for this!

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One thing to add here... If you think that copy protection really makes a difference, then check out the "scene" release dates (Translation: When the game, movie, etc. is available in the Warez circles) and compare them to the street dates for most big programs. You'll find that even with recent copy protection, most high profile games are available Warezed starting a few days to a week before street date.

For reference, check nforce.nl for a reasonably comprehensive listing of warez releases.

NOTE: NO WAREZ CAN BE FOUND AT THE ABOVE SITE! It's just a listing of .nfo files about the releases. Nothing illegal there, they even censor serial numbers out of the .nfo's.

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Having spent a few days reading around the issue of Starforce now, I can tell you that Stardock is getting some excellent press and is being set up as the Light side compared to the Dark of Starforce. I have read many people that have never heard of Stardock or any of its products now really interested in what the company is doing and fully intending to support it through purchasing the software.

I have rarely, if ever, felt respect for a games developer publisher beyond the quality of their game, but Stardock is making me feel all gooey inside! Perhaps it's just a Valentines Day buzz.... but... I love you guys!

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Bonus content for customers

Another company who does this is Maxis

Register your copy of the Sims online.. and you get to download extra bits and goodies.

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