I'm going to tell you the same thing you have always been told when you try and justify gimmicks.

Gimmicks generally suffer from an inherent weakness over flexible choices in well designed games.  That is, gimmicks work well against bad players who don't know what they are doing (because they don't know how to defend against them), but they work much more poorly against skilled players (who will know how to defend against them).

But, why invest in strategies designed to work primarily against bad players?  After all, you should be able to beat bads with a wide range of strategies.  You should be investing in strategies that are optimized against GOOD players who aren't idiots, not what will work well on your many alt accounts or with random Gold V MadCast people.

Good opponents will usually disrupt plans.  Thats what good players do.  So if your entire game revolves around some very set plan in a position as inherently flexible as jungle, I am extremely skeptical.

Specifically, if you sell out on an early dragon strategy, what happens if you fail against an aware team?  You might very well cost your team the game because you are now so much weaker than the opponents jungler.  On the other hand, if you take a flexible jungler you don't sell out on a particular strategy.  So you still have a good shot at dragon, but don't have a really good shot at losing the game if you don't get it.

And, dragon isn't that powerful such that it justifies all that.  Even if you get your early first dragon, if they get the second dragon, you are likely in trouble.  You really have to snowball hard, and counting on a big time snowball is hard on a consistent basis.

And I'm quite well aware of how early dragon metas work.  I used to play WW back in the day when you did level 3 dragons with WW/Nunu/Shaco, etc.  But WW was different back then since you weren't giving anything up to do the early attempt.

i mean, i think there's a difference at taking someone who is naturally good at something, and playing that jungler to their strengths.

You don't take Lee Sin and farm: you gank.

You don't take Fiddle/WW/Nunu and ignore dragon: you slay it.

However, let's say you decide to do some silly runes + masteries (flat AP reds, flat AS blues, flat HP quints) to take dragon at the 3:00 mark "every time".  Well now rather than playing towards your strengths, you are 'cheesing' and really doubling-down on them. If your plan doesn't go 100% perfect, you are quite likely going to be a liability because of it.

You just have to make sure whatever you want to do is... actually good in the meta? When Feral Flare was released, you better have been playing an Autoattack Farmer. Season 2, you better have been playing a level 3 ganker. It's hard to say exactly where the optimal gank/farm/objective combination lies.

The gold values for the 8% AP/AD in the earlyish/midgame is something like... (i am going to sort of assume both teams will kill dragon once in 25 minutes, so i'm focusing on the gold value for the 15-20 minute mark).

550-600 for the ADC early game (assuming they go BFS - trinity carries get less AD, but more AP so it's probably about equal)

220 for the AP early game (assuming they are going Athenes or Tear + Morellos. DFG rushers who are fed and start off with an NLR will get about 400g).

Basically nothing for the support.

Junglers get ~200 gold in terms of clearing power. Once they finish their AD/AP item, they get another ~200 gold for ganking/teamfights.

2x Dorans + Brutalizer AD top laners get ~500 gold - pretty huge. AP tops who go RoA will only get ~200 gold.

So the first bonus is significantly better for the ADC, aggressive AD top laners, and AD/AP carry junglers once they finish their item (which actually means fast barons are LESS useful for Nunu since he is probably going the HP item right?).

Traditional mages would probably prefer the 200 gold for their completed item early-game, but once they have 2-3 items, the 8% AP is really nice. Assassins/Ahri/Syndra prefer the new dragon buff. Supports pretty much LOSE 100 gold (spend 100 on a pink, and they get nothing out of it). AP tops would probably prefer the 200 gold since they have to wait for Tear/RoA to stack anyway.

+15% damage to minions/monsters... hard to put a value on that. i suppose it is kind of like an old Machete? Without any of the regen. So that's worth like 150 gold max, except for the jungler. The real value of the 2nd dragon is denying the enemy their first buff.

+5% MS is a weak pair of tier 1 boots. Jungles who go Mobo get a little bit more of a benefit, but generally ~15 MS. So that's worth ~200. A lot of people would still prefer that 200 gold to go to a completed items. However, the %MS does help you close games since it allows you to initiate slightly easier.

+15% damage to turrets. Not very useful if you are WAY ahead (not many turrets to kill). Pretty useful in a close game if you're a siege comp, though. At the very least, it's worth ~900 gold (a pickaxe) on your ADC whenever they are shooting a tower.

A fast, full health clear has other benefits.  Nunu can do great ganks bot with steroid on the adc, you can hit two slows reliably, do significant damage, and boost your adc with the 25% AS boost.  Ganking mid isn't so hot, but he can feed an adc great.

Here's what I want to throw out there - as long as we are talking about jungle, I'd def like to collect some data and then compile,share.

I know you fellas might already be over it, but if not, start any jungle champ discussion like this: champ: runes (specific 9 ad red, etc), mastery (pic if you like or just say 21/9, etc), items, path, status at 3-4min.  Then add just your basic feedback.  I'm personally curious about how champs do early (level 3-4).  I'm going to MAKE UP an example of what I think is useful - again - this is off the top of my head

EXAMPLE ONLY:
NUNU - 9 AS red, 9 Flat ARM, 9 FLAT MR, 3 MS QUINT.  0/21/9.  Items: machete 2 pots.  Path:  smite Gomp, Blue, Red - 90-100% hp at 3:40.  W, Q, E - then max queue for control.  (I start W if team with me to speed up dmg output/ms). 

That sort of thing is quite useful to me anyway.  Chip in if you like.  I'll share like that as I try things out going forward.

I would be interested in 3's or 5's ranked.

I'm fine w/ whatever.

That said, look at this jungle route.  No potions at start - its dbl golumns, red.  Base immediately and buy the upgraded jungle item, then off you go again.  thoughts?>

u can also start w/ 1 red pot and do the same more or less

also just saw this load screen tip - as syndra throw a jungle creep with a buff for an additional effect... hurm..

Anyone tried Jungle Alistar lately? Last season due to his passive nerfs he was forgotten, but now with the new machete and the Gromp smite buff, his early clear is ok (not amazing, but we know that he is great not about that, but about his ganks). My choice of runes and masteries most likely is not optimal, but I go 21/9/0 masteries (AP tree), magic pen reds, armor yellows, situational blues (mr/level, Ap/level), AP quints. Didn't test with others, but might go better, however, it's focused more about ganking than clearing jungle. Anyway, the route looks:

Gromp smite (with a strong leash preferably) > Blue > Wolves > Gank/Wraiths > Do whatever you like (Gank, Red, back, etc).

First skills go like this: Q, E, W. You need to continuously use E after you get it to keep yourself at as much hp as you can, so that you could gank straight away after you get 3rd level from wolves. I go with the Blue jungle item, which slows, so the ganks are pretty strong. His huge weakness is inability to get drakes by himself, but if you can get kills bot or mid, then with a laner it's not a big issue.

Also I noticed that the new Banner of command is quite decent, if you have problems with pushing enemies or winning teamfights of 5v5. Kind of like split pushing, which is not very obvious until it's too late. Dance around dragon/baron/defending your turret while minions are pushing and you can force fight if one retreats or let them slowly lose towers. May not work all the time well, but still a nice thing.

Funny video about the new jungle creeps getting stuck by Syndra. Especially good for hiding crab or buff camps at baron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1pSrghzP-0

will have to take a look at ali and see how he shakes out.

Happy thanksgiving folks!

re: wraith camp buff.

My understanding is that it is supposed to be sort of OP. The Wraith Camp can really help "MS" junglers who can really only gank by running at you (Shyvana, Skarner, Udyr, etc), but junglers with point-and-click jumps were able to bypass wards. Also, since it is much more difficult to gank at the 3 minute mark, the wraith camp is a way to improve your ganking for the rest of the game.

i guess i slightly disagree? The good gankers are often able to completely bypass "shallow" wards... Not to mention mediocre gankers are (typically) able to do dragon a lot easier than heavy gankers, and being able to sweep dragon while you're soloing it early is pretty huge.

In my opinion, the best way to counter the Raptors is just to have midlane constantly throw their trinket in front of the camp. That way the moment they clear the camp, they kill your ward that has already provided you a lot of intel, and prevents them from killing your more useful wards (eg, 3 minute ward in river bush).

kind of digging on aatrox again in the new jung.  Undecided about final build, but I'm actually thinking getting a mid game qss might not be the worst idea considering his sustain/dmg when not cc'd.