@ezeltje299 if the advent charecter is continuesly barraging you with that cannon. no its the most OP thing in the game no ammount of culture output will stop it. 

@ARESIV ive almost got the map complete to test all the eco together at ounce. just need someone who is good with VAS or advent/ the eco have to more or less be built the same for both sides to see which is best. i imagine pervasive economy coupled with a couple other thing will make TEC by far best in ECO

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Induced Reverence takes 18 minutes to pay itself off, on a maxed out population terran planet.

also iif the advent have a crapton of culture like they should you cant just jump to the back and nom nom nom planet if u can cap them

TEC actually are economic faction, Vasari economy might be better than that of Advent, but certainly nowhere near TEC one. Additionally, as you talk about lore and how things do not make sense with Vasari in regard to lore - the Vasari are actually meant to be a military faction, with a mobility upside that is. Do not know where this notion about Advent having strongest military comes from -  the Advent were meant to be the "culture" faction from the beginning.

That is where Aresiv´s ratings fail BTW, he always rates the factions only when it comes to military and economy, but there are 3 factions and 3 categories! And based on that, it was meant to be TEC - economy, Advent - culture, Vasari - military.

The obvious issue there in order of importance the culture is in the last spot. This is at least how the players perceive the game IMHO, or in other words i guess it is more natural to people to take care of military and economy first an foremost, as they bring to you visible results of your actions. On other hand the culture is bit more abstract and majority of people prefer to win the game by power of their fleets, not power of their culture. I can understand that as i am the same way BTW.

Anyway, this IMHO leads to a situation, where even Advent players neglect the culture willingly and i think this discussion is a good testament to that. Why are we anyway talking always about how Advent stands no chance in battle of weapons against Vasari, when area of Advent expertise is a culture? Why are you not complaining that culture - the main supposed power of your fav faction -  is not good enough to make a difference instead? 

What i am trying to say now, perhaps we should be discussing the ways of making culture more relevant, thus buffing the Advent the way the faction was designed, instead of this constant whining about Vasari being OP.

The other thing, i read Jinglys post - 350. And he says following:

- that he thinks you exaggerate quite a bit - could not agree more here

- that he witnessed a game, where VL player took on 3 other players and almost won. Now 2 things are important here: that was just one game, surely you dont expect the game to be balanced based on anecdotal reference like that. Maybe the Grimm was way too good, maybe the other 3 players were not as decent as Jingly thinks. Anyway. what is more important here, is the little word "almost". Saying "almost won" at least to me implies that he in fact lost. And that was actually what i was asking about. I am not interested whether VL players can go and "almost" win in 1v3 situation regularly.

- that he played another game, where if i understood that correctly, the VL player - doci - alone against more players barely lost. Do i need to point out that "barely" losing is still losing? I dont play competitively, does the game hold stats on how many games you "almost won" and "barely lost"? I would not know.

 Maybe next time you get beaten by Vasari you may just say to yourself that you almost won. If thats the same to you as actual winning.

EDIT: Oh, and 50-100 wings of any kind of bombers, not just the Vasari ones, will kill any capital ship very quickly.

Is it normal for the seekers, that i can't stop the "all auto-attacking" or is that a bug?

too long to put the text in

VASARI, the looong millennia journey, uber technology etc etc. They can be strong, but I guess they should need to worry about their numbers, I don't think they could afford any losses and this could be their weakness, keeping the armada together with minimal losses. But in the game they can easily rebuild, a strong economy paired with a fleet that can defeat 2-3 times larger ones.. So their eco is not even used at 100% percent most of the times. Losing a capital ship? Who cares? See the point? They are running away from something, they should not play like the other races, they should have an inherent penalty of ship loss or maybe even more expensive ships. They almost have the economy of the TEC.. its no good, and their fleet is the best, rapes advent hard..

How do you know Jingly is right and I am exxaggerating quite a bit? You never played skilled games online and you don't have experience from games against VL.. All right I sometimes exxaggerated things, but the point is the important, Vasari is too strong. They should have a smaller fleet!! like 1500 commandpoints compared to the other races 2000. I don't think Vasari brought their full dark armada with them.. Most of it was lost I guess in the unknown event (still bullshit, couldnt they use cameras and internet??? wtf Vasari, they dont even know what destroyed their empire)

I laughed a lot when i read Advent is about culture (though I know they should be about it, but still..) You do know culture worth nothing, right? (though I always get culture with all races as soon i can, but it's my obsession to do, no real economic or military advantage from it)  the overall 10 percent income increase that doesn't affect trade ports.. And the brutally expensive and useless level8 allure of the unity? level8 and only increases 5-5%... OK AL has a good stuff, lev5 culture spread and 5-5% allegiance increase, thats good, but allure is bad, should be 10-10 percent, or lower on the tree, much lower.. The side effects of culture are wery weak for Advent, the mitigation that only makes Vasari stronger (more mitigation the more effective phase missiles are.... -.- ) only annoys TEC, but they can bear it I guess. The TEC and Vasari bonuses are both much better in my opinion, but still not much and it takes much time to get them.. Use culture for offensive???? How the hell? 1-2 enemy culture centers and maybe a capitalship there makes this impossible, even the deliverance engine is weak in this stuff, only need to put 1-2 culture centers around the map and see no problem..

The main problem is the allegiance I think. If it was +10 and +10 increase with culture for TEC and Vasari, and 20 or 30% for Advent, that would make a difference.. But if you compare the current form of culture you will see it never reaches the uberness of trade ports.. never.. But how can you make culture good for Advent? If Advent gets a much better economy TEC will have serious difficulties and there will be new type of complaining.. And Vasari will still steamroll Advent, just Advent will be able to replace losses better.. I say give advent +10 percent allegiance increase, and give them a research that makes them immune to phase missiles in their own culture... 100% immune! It is a brutal mistake from the developers they think Advent would let phase missiles penetrate their shields for decades without researching some countermeasures?????? lol seems legit, if you hit me once unexpected and start a fight, next time i will defend against your attack.. but here its like, oh, you have a nice weapon that penetrates our main defense? good for you, have a nice day. And Advent ships are slaughtered for decades by Vasari, only recently there is a tiny side effect of culture increase, that is completely useless as you never get full values at border words or enemy territory..

It seems like Timmaigh you have ideas to make culture actually useful for Advent, maybe it gets the developers attention if those are actually useful ideas, but how can we know? Lets hear them (I am tired of talking about Vasari OPness, lets talk about Advent instead)

Disable the function with a right mouse click, like you can do it with all other ships?^^

My problem is that they don't stay out of reach of the enemy starbase or the defending plattforms, while in the meantime my fleet is attacking the enemy fleet. It's not that big problem, but it's annoying.

Keep complaining about that then. You whined about Maw that long that you finally got your nerf.

BTW speaking of culture, how does it work, if you play locked teams and your teammate builds culture centers, thus spreading his culture over your planets as well (as you did not got culture yourself). Does his culture gives any bonuses to you, or is it just there to push enemy culture, but you get no other bonuses (allegiance and whatever affect ships)?

You guys completely took my post out of context. So let me just say that while Turchany is obviously exagerrating quite a bit, in essence hes correct. How correct is unknown until 1.5 hits and people are able to test the balance. Additionally i see vasari win 1v2 almost everytime and 1v3 quite often. I probably havent explained those 2 games above very well but the players in them were very decent. Im easily in top 10 players on ICO and have beaten Grimm or Doci before, not to boast or anything and have had same feedback from them.

When you see a lower skilled player just playing vasari abc and completely shutting down one of the best players around only cos hes vasari something isnt right. Its really common knowledge in mp games, some hosts dont allow more than 1 vasari per side, some skilled players dont even pick vasari cos its just too easy and breaks the game. As i said earlier *even* close games are those most fun! One thing i DO love about vasari is that new players find it a lot easier to get into the game as early orkies allow them to survive a lot longer than they would with other races and as a result learn and experience the game more.

After all that though i think the patch has gone a long way at overall balance and the only issue i can see is the phase missile damage on vasari. Advent do NOT need buffing anymore, culture is underated (could use cheaper culture uprades but not neccessary) and some advent ships are very powerful.

@Timmy I never wanted any skill/ability removed, just a damage nerf OR whats even better a smaller damage "boost" vs Advent.  To be honest game is nearly there imo ( might be wrong but 1.5 is lookin great) and perfect balance will never be achieved. Just look at starcraft 2, with all the millions ActiBlizzard steal from gullible WoW/Diablo3 population that game still isnt balanced and a lot of people are unhappy.

Sins is great and hopefully will stay that way for a long time. Just nerf PMs vs Advent please Yarlen!

EDIT: @ Timmy yes you get bonuses too and it is a lot more valuable than just to push enemy culture back. In Eco position i love sending sbs to my allies and gettting max culture on them. With enough upgrades (easy to get as eco) they wlll also be able to see through fog of war which is invaluable and underated in my opinion.

Devs ignore requests on nerfing the base damage of Vasari bombers (so far)..

Culture has little benefits comapred to other things like trade or military. The side efefcts are good but you can easily and happily live without them.. Though an eco player can get an edge if he gets culture and the other teams eco dont (many times this was the cause I was better than the other team's eco player and won the game..) but maybe if I put trade instead of culture the results would have been the same.. Don't know.. btw I was Vasari one time in those games I mentioned before, and my impression is that Vasari can be as good eco as TEC (or even better, in that game I had 210 credit income lol, highest ever).. Back to advent culture, the mitigation can be good, makes the starbase even harder to destroy, but against Vasari it's not much of a help, and again I must say that you won't get full effect on border worlds, only 50-75% depending on the situation. The earlier culture center can be a big help early game, but think about it, you need high-pop planets to get as good increase as you would from a trade port and it needs time to go in effect, further the planet is, slower the allegiance increase.. The extraction increase is good, I can't relate it to the refineries as noone uses them online, and to trade ports as I am not a mathematican and cant exchange metal values to credits in my head so quickly.. But I guess still better to get trade ports everywhere, and if you consider your opponent is likely to get culture sometime, your economic edge is nullified, and other races will get the edge cause of their trade increase techs..

Main probelm is Advent trade network will always be inferior to TEC and Vasari ones (and guess what is the late game main income source..), and they don't have anything for compensation, and if you check the extraction increase, things get even worse, I don't see the reason why can't they have crystal extr incr like TEC have the metal one? level1-2-4 not 3-4-5 and for metal Advent has 2-3-4 now I think.. For 2 civilian labs TEC can increase metal twice, crystal once while Advent can only do metal once.. And it IS A SIGNIFICANT WEAKNESS, even when you are not eco, in skilled games I always research some extraction, but as Advent I can't really do anything as they are very expensive.. as TEC having all level1-2 extraction was every time a significant help even against better players than me.. TEC start is the same as Advent, outspamming the other with one ship type or 2, but the most important factor is that Advent cannot rebuild losses that fast due to their shitty eco even in the start.. I am sure you will argue with me, but believe me, that 27% metal and 13% crystal increase is a huge one after several minutes.. while advent has almost nothing at level2 research Culture is a thing, but at best that is a 10 percent increase and takes much time to apply everywhere...

Against Vasari Advent must rebuild, but from what??

You only get what your faction has researched. You won't get ANY bonus from the allies research.

You only get the full bonus if the planet is 100% saturated with culture.

Noone asks every race to be the same, they should be equally good with their own stuff.. Like culture should be nearly as good as trade (but meanwhile Advent trade worths nothing because I don't think they are that much of a traders.. maybe temple of communions should generate some credits?), etc..

For the last sentence, how can they not sit back and fight effectively when basically Vasari massacres them? How can they be aggressive (and not foolishly) if all their ships are likely to be easily killed by Vasari while they can't effectively rebuild them like TEC?

Oh yeah, now i am confused . Need more clarification. So me being Vasari, sitting in allied TEC culture. I dont get the TEC cultural bonus - antimatter regen? - in this situation ever. But i can get my own Vasari cultural bonus - from their culture, although i need to have it researched first. Did i get it right?

How do i know the planet is fully saturated with the culture? Is that represented by allegiance? Or is it only if all the phase lanes connected to the gravity well in question are colored in my team color?

Does allied culture increase allegiance on my planets? Or for that do i need to have my own culture?