Well they do both have the word "disrupt" in them.   Why shouldn't disruption matrix also disrupt antimatter and shield generators and self repair systems?

@Timmy

First of all i love our discussions!

Secondly i dont understand why you care so much  as it doesnt affect your non-comp non-ICO experience. Obviously they are NOT going to remove any race abilities or anything like that, stop worrying about mobility removal (?!) . What we are asking for is numbers nerfs, less PM damage etc... It would literally have 0 effect on your single player experience ( Vasari will still be grossly overpowered) but at the same time help those that DO play on ICO. You just dont realise how boring mp games are where vasari become so unstoppable 4 players can barely or not at all stop it.

Do you think its more fun to ONLY play vasari? Even games are those that are most fun!

But anyways thirdly and mosty importantly, I was right about WAIL buff to be around 10 Damage during the beta testing!. Please ask me for more balance suggestions!

Have you actually used this ability in the beta? Nanites is powerful because of its duration (5 minutes), not its effect alone. Disruption Matrix lasts what, 10 seconds? They are not really comparable, and the Ankylon needed all the buffs it could get.

The real problem with Vorastra mobility that in the highest level of Sins gaming, the skilled team matches online against humans, it is something that is not a balanced thing. I know you find it quite funny, me too in singleplayer where AI cannot use it. But think about if AI could eventually use it well (maybe even with maw), you wouldn't think it's a good stuff that you can't drain it's AM effectively without killing yourself. The solution would be to either decrease the range of jumping, the cooldown of the ability, or the antimatter cost so you can eventually drain it without sacrificing anything.

Well go online and see it for yourself. Skilled Vasari players prepare for retreat I think, if I were one, I would make my Vorastras retreat safe... And try to kill the wounded Vorastra while facing the vasari defenses.. You are likely to die, lose so much the dead Vorastra was not worth it mathematically.. Online Ogrovs are bad.. People focus on them with fighters and corvettes, and drive their orkulus inbetween them... Don't forget we are not playing against the dumb AI or some friends, skilled humans are nothing like that..

We're looking into the Terran planet bug. This is why we're in beta.

@urfullofshit as far as I know people have been complaining about PM since the BEGINNING, even during non-rebellion times PM were VERY powerful and made advent shields quite useless.

the advent cannon, while annoying, is easily blocked. Since culture will restore before it can refire(talking culture, not allegiance, but with restored culture you will get your allegiance back) and, if you don't have atleast 1 Culture building at all your planets while fighting advent(who is playing with his cannons) you are doing something wrong anyway IMHO(Especially as TEC). And any planet that you lose to the cannon can be repopulated within a minute generally, so not a real problem.  

Probably not,

BUT

Ogrovs only deal damage against structures, which makes them entirely worthless in fleet battles. They also need to face the - moving - Orky to launch their missiles. The Orky will move into range and rain death and destruction on them.

Yes, the Ogrovs - sufficient numbers of course - will win in the end. But you just spend a ton of credits and more important, fleet supply on a ship with an extremely limited role.

BTW:

12 Lasuraks:

Credits: 9720

Metal: 1920

Crystal: 1880

Supply: 168

12 Ogrovs:

Credits: 7440

Metal: 1560

Crystal: 1140

Supply: 144

Why not build TEC carriers instead?

12 Percherons:

Credits: 10020  WTF---  more expensive than the Vasari one!

Metal: 1800

Crystal: 1620

Supply: 168

The carriers are superior against starbases, especially against the Orky as they can usually fly ahead of it and so never will get hit.

No doubt, Ogrovs have their places but the Adjucator is an entirely different topic. It is very bad against singular hard structures like starbases, Advent is always better of by building bombers.

And as you all can see here, Vasari carriers dont use more fleet supply than TEC or Advent carriers, besides having significantly more power. They dont cost more, too.

An often overlooked - cool feature- of Sins is that ships accelerate more slowy away from the planet than towards it.

You dont do "some" pre positioning... you line the Titan up to nearly 100 %. And then you Micro Phase Jump

0.5 seconds later you are there.

Now it most cases you have the enemy frigate at point blank range.

Even if not, you can use a order queue to target a frigate approaching from the other side... it will fly right into the trigger arc.

For example:

Queued target                                    MPJ end location with titan pointing upwards 90 degree

Enemy Frigates moving to right ----> Your Titans Maw area                               ---- >                   Enemy frigates moving to right

Even if you give he 20 different fleet orders in 0.5 seconds to save your fleet from the Maw, by the time they execute those new orders abd change direction they are already drawn into the Maw.

Many Titans can more or less instakill frigates. Ever seen an high level Eradica on rampage?

BUT

that is compensated by a slow movement and a high vulnerability to bombers.

Micro Phase Jump makes the Vorastra the only anti carrier Titan in the game.... and with the unlimited Maw before you could just eat the pesky 80 carrier fleet before their bombers even penetrated your shields.

Not to mention that the Disruptor Nanites on the Vasari Phase Missile Platform STILL has FIVE ENTIRE MINUTES DURATION.

Yeah, thats right... Vasaris turret is better than a high level Titan.

5 Minutes.....

No hull regeneration (values easily in the thousands for Titans and capitalships)

No shield regeneration (values easily even higher)

No antimatter regeneration (5 minutes ability disable? FTW.....

Please developers.... nerf that down to 30 seconds or so.... 5 minutes is unbelievable long for an passive ability with this power levels. 

Induced Reverence takes 18 minutes to pay itself off, on a maxed out population terran planet.

And even after that, you would make more money by building a trade port on your starbase.

Allegiance is cool, but even if you consider raised extraction rates and not just taxes, trade is superior, not to mention, much cheaper as it normally does not require an very expensive starbase.

It is entirely possible to have a competive economy without trade in the early stages of the game, so the additional lab requirement for Advent and Vasari are meaningless.

What however is very important, is the fact that TEC have many powerful trade upgrades and so have Vasari.

That means that TEC with a trade route of 10 trade ports will earn more money than Vasari with a trade route of 10 trade ports and Vasari will still earn considerable more than Advent with a trade route of 10 trade ports.

Advent dont have any trade upgrades, and so they have a notable weaker economy from the time trade ports are being constructed.

Vasari have the very good COMBINED extractor upgrades, and scouts for capturing neutral extractors.

All of that, makes their eco considerable better than Advent one.

Yes, and now the Deliverance Engine is not a joke weapon anymore.

It now can do some long term economic damage, because your enemy must scuttle some of his money printing trade ports for culture centers.

But compared to Vasari "My fleet at your homeworld + stripping your homeworld" it just pales in comparsion.

Advent dont have trouble with TEC.

Advent have trouble with Vasari.... and said trouble is well beyond what is good for an equally balanced game.

Advent vs TEC is mostly balanced by TEC having the economy to wage a multi front war (which will ruin Advent synergies) and to accept a loss ratio of 2: 1 and still be on the winning side.

True... Vasari have a somewhat slower start in comparsion..... but they have the Orky for early defense and it is a murderous one, mind you.

And after the early game, they become equal to TEC and Advent, and then they become significantly more powerful.

OK, I guess considering the lore regarding "uncolonized" planets it makes sense, but it was a bit disconcerting nonetheless.

You can always use the map designer in game to quickly look at whatever planets you want to...

Well. that is the point - the Ogrovs are single purpose units, which counters the starbases (and structures in general) HARD. Harder than carriers, as you can see for yourself - they are not only more cost-effective (7440 to 10020), but can destroy the starbase way faster than the carriers. Not to mention you dont have to micromanage the battle, run circles around gravity well while the bombers do their job. You can pretty much leave Orkulus come toward the Ogrovs, if will be down before it can destroy just few of them.

So in other words single-purpose nature of Ogrovs is a trade-off, its not useless like you make it look it is. 

Regarding Adjudicators, well its not Vasari´s fault those are shit, it is? They could use a buff, or more precisely they would be better working exactly the same as Ogrovs. The devs clearly wanted them to be different to make the factions more asymmetric, which is usually great and i am all for it, but in this particular case it IMHO does not work. 

In regard to Maw, your example sounds good on "paper", but its not exactly that easy in reality. I did it enough time to know, when the targets are moving, it can become fairly unreliable. If you shoot for perfect execution, to kill the majority of targets/all of them,  usually you have one single shot at it and your timing has to be perfect. There is a factor of "luck" in the whole thing, you dont kill 80 carriers every single activation, there are too many variables present and i dont think you cant deny that. And BTW, if someone keeps his 80 carriers clusterfucked in a single place, he kinda deserves them gone.

Bottom line, as i said, i accepted the Maw nerf and there is no need to discuss it any further. But i dont want Vorastra to be tampered with beyond that any further (where i happen to disagree with Turchany). I think MPJ is just fine, as its there to work in addition to Maw, without it Maw would be just pointless, impossible to pull off, unless you jump your Titan right into the fleet of frigates on the edge of gravity well (jump meant as from other gravity well). It would be only different, if Maw was not a targeted ability and worked the same as Dissever or Chastic Burst. And finally the Vorastra´s frontal firepower bigger than of Ragnarov.... well Vorastra does not have Snipe or Unity Mass in addition to its regular weapon output, does it? Nor can it rapidly heal itself the same way Kultorask or Ankylon do. So there is clearly reason why it is the way it is.

Can anyone confirm the VL is THAT overpowered he can go solo against 3-4 other players with full fleets and win? Because i find it hard to believe.