Let's talk about crafting... » Forum Post by Frogboy

Whatever the system of choice, don't make it overly complicated. Choices should be concise and significant.

Choosing between a +1 weapon and a +1.1 weapon will KILL the entire idea.
Choosing between a +1 Weapon and a +2 Fire weapon will add fantastic diversity.

Also, crafting should not be limited to equipment. Consumables, Heroes, and maybe even specialized buildings should be able to craft a variety of possibilities.

Again, not overly complex....just a dozen choices or so giving option to the player (and the modder the ability to abuse and expand upon.)

Good luck with the project.

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BernieTime

Join Date 10/2009

+10

This

Quoting Kongdej,

reply 21

quoting post
A lot of people would like to see crafting in some future expansion, update, sequel, whatever.

The question is, HOW do you imagine this working?

I must be part of the more grumpy people when I personally feel crafting would be redundant in FE.
<Snip>
I think it would be much better if you focused on the other parts of FE right now, like UI. Etc...
Sincerely
~ Kongdej

I'd rather see resources spent on getting diplomacy working (relevant), UI Tweaks, Game Engine fixes, Updating Modding pieces, etc..
Crafting (Items) is far down on my list. Crafting Spells could be a different story..

Never understood why games with mana systems don't just give you a slider for how much mana you want to pump into a spell instead of separate tiers that basically do the same thing.

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Quoting BernieTime,

reply 27

Never understood why games with mana systems don't just give you a slider for how much mana you want to pump into a spell instead of separate tiers that basically do the same thing.

Funny, Master of Magic comes to mind

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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Crafting would be very low on my wishlist.

Things that are far more important to me are:

UI (soooo many things to improve here!)
Diplomacy (as in, making it work)
Making factions more diverse / unique
Make the game fit the lore more (Militia archers for Ythril...)

I don't care much about the actual mechanic as long as it's usable by both me and the AI, it adds significant advantages at significant cost (in other words: make to craft or not to craft a significant decision). And make a crafted object not go obsolete within a few seasons (and thus making crafting a non-issue until end-game)

If you do invest into crafting, tie the crafting to your faction and sovereign. This way, the mechanic will add flavour to the game. And in Fantasy/RPG-style games, the right flavour is king.

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Crafting would be cool, but fixing existing bugs and giving the UI some much-needed attention is much more of a priority. Each feature added zaps away resources to improve the information displayed and how you interact with it. There's been a great UI post already you've likely already seen by Darxim. Work on that stuff first. Once that's mission accomplished, add in other features (like crafting).

That said, crafting as a way to enchant items and combine ingredients from quests or vanquished foes is a good idea. It adds value and gives you another way to spend mana/gold. My vote would be a rather simple interface as suggested by others.

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Quoting gladestrider,

reply 15

("Power-crafted Weapons", "Power-crafted Armor")

My Warhammer 40k memory banks kicked in when you mentioned Power Armor/Power Weapons [Chain Sword ? Jump jets?]

Good input there GladeStrider.

Speaking of jump jets. As long as we're wishing big, Flying mounts/items?

Now I know that is a tall order but if I can direct you to "Avernum: Escape From the Pit" by SpiderWeb Software {I hope StarDock doesn't get angry at another's game reference}.

[Spoiler Alert]

They implement short flight via a First Expedition Artifact "The Orb of Thralni". I could, theoretically at least, obtain that at around level 3, depending on how I am playing the game. All it does is allow 3 turns of flight while outdoors. It definitely does not unbalance the gameplay in any way. Sure I can access high level areas, but I can't do anything due to guardians, etc. being 10 or so level higher than me. What it does do is give me access to flight only/high-level areas before I have levelled up...

S_S

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davrovana

Join Date 05/2009

+61

Make it a goodie hut that spawns near the center of the map. Once a quest is completed, spawn a "master enchanter hut" resource square. Players can fight over control of the resource, and when a player has it under control, items can be crafted for crystal/gold.

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Quoting zlefin,

reply 26

Also, we still need a system to equip your champs with the more normal items; it's nonsnse to have to pay a FORTUNE to buy an item for a champ when they're sitting in a stack of 20 regular units that all carry that item.

^^ This

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I assume you're taking ideas for the expansion here. Considering the amount of work the game needs, a crafting system would have to be very simple and considered a very minor feature.

I would limit it to upgrading existing equipment, either with resources or magic. Any piece of equipment can be upgraded one time to add one trait to it. Enchantments would cost mana but have no upkeep cost. Other improvements could use various materials (including vendor trash like Spider Silk and Wolf Pelts). You pick your item, you pick an upgrade you have the necessary resources for, you click Upgrade, and you're done.

Upgrades would need to be researched, but rather than give them their own techs, I would tack one at a time to existing techs. Attach them to the less-appealing techs.

I would keep the number of upgrades relatively small, and simple in function. They should only make very minor changes to the equipment they're upgrading, as crafting would be a very minor aspect of the game.

Crafting works in MMO's because you're building up your character for a long time, and you're sticking with that character for a long time, and you can sell your wares to others if you're not using them yourself. You're only going to play a game of FE for a few hours, so you're really not going to commit to a complex crafting system. I think most people would try it out at first, and then give it a miss in future games. That's why I say it should be simple and low-impact.

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Here is how to make crafting simple, fun, and intertwined with your empire:

1. You need to research certain techs to make items. I think you should really overhaul all three tech trees right now anyway, but depending on how many techs you want to add you can go simple if using the current tech tree which would just have different general categories like lesser artifact, greater artifact, and epic artifact. You could also break it down further like armor, weapons, accessories.

2. Now this is really what I think makes the system. The types of enchantments that you are able to place on an item are dependent on how many shards you control (+power from buildings like eroggs tower). Do you have one air shard, well your weapon can have some lightning damage on it. Do you have 3 air shards? Now you can throw some haste buff or dodge. Do you have 5 air shards? Well now you can make a sword that can deflect missiles back at your enemy or when you hit stuff lighting comes out of the sky and toasts them! Certain magic item types can hold certain kinds of enchantments. The cost to create the item could be a combination of metal, crystal, gold, and mana.

3. That's it. No need to make it any more complicated than that. Now you have some real incentive to go around capturing shards regardless of what spells you can cast or if you are a melee or magic focused sovereign. Also I think it fits in well with the lore about the Forge of the Overlord and the Shards. Heck, even the last item tech could be named Secrets of the Forge.

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I think in 2 ways

1.- Crafting only for champions.

2.- Crafting for champs and for units

This is, following the current distinction.

To make it simple, a certain tech would unlock a building that allows that city to produce crafted items for heroes and units.

For units.

Crafting an equipable item for units produced in that city.

The recipe: base item + magic spell.

Magic item Cost: base item + mana +/- crystal.

Wargs and horses might be enchanted too.

For champs.

The hero must stay in the city all the process, as he is going to take part in it. IF the hero leaves the city, the production stops, but can be retaken. When finished, the champ has the item in the inventory. If the city is attacked, the hero can defend it too. If city is lost, item and materials are lost too. I think that when the item is crafted, the champ receives a small amount of XP.

From here, you can add as many pre-req, options and updates as wish.

As an example, a Crafting Building can give a lot of strategy to wich city select, as it will give that city strong/special unit production.

Building updates might be unlocked by research, and can be tied to certain city level. These updates allow adding more spells/more powerfull versions. Updating the building might be a long process untill the most advanced stage.

A hero with "Crafting" skill could reduce time /cost of the production (I think in Crafting I, II...), at the same time that receives more XP when crafted.

Adding loot materials (skath, silk, all that) instead of a spell might supose a special effect too, as posted before. Crafting skill might improve the effect too.

Well, hope you liked these ideas

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First of all, weapons should always be available without craftsmanship for the purpose of casual game players-- ie: the base weapons should not change. Since iron mines are already a tile for basic 'iron' weapons, it seems as though you could add other premium ores without much overhead on the development side-- you could use basic "elemental" ores like copper, tin and you could have exotic fantasy ores like adamantite etc. etc.

The creation of these weapons would probably be fashioned in a method similar to the customization of armies- perhaps it would require a city with a specific building in it [forge? blacksmith?] and a hero character with the specific crafting ability [administrative heroes? craft heroes?]. Once these two things are in a city together [and you have some various ores stockpiled] you could open up a screen and fashion custom weapons with different mixtures of ores that you could experiment with-- perhaps in a method similar to current tech tree research such as this "experiment" of ores for this type of weapon will take ... 5 tuns of futzing. The end of this would be a success or a failure depending on factors like experience, types of ore, ratio of ores etc. etc. and if successful would give you the new weapon [with cost and materials adjusted based upon your craftsman] for building custom units with.

The combat statistics of a mace for example could be adjusted according-- lets say you experimented with 3 units of copper and 1 unit of tin on a mace, the result would be a bronze mace, which probably wouldn't hurt any more than an iron or copper mace, but could be swung slightly more accurately and could be wielded with slightly less encumbrance. Over the long haul, small improvement will make large changes.

This would not necessarily even be limited to ores-- you could include sands for glass / arcane items or wood for staffs and bows and such-- of course all sorts of magical items and abilities could be added, though you might refrain from having a stockpile of say... "dragon scales" and rather just make them a carry item that has to be in the craft man's inventory to work with.

However, before I get too far ahead of myself-- there are probably many other things that should be addressed first. Whatever you do though, don't force it upon people who aren't interested in using it-- keep default weapons feasible [except maybe on hard... freakin' casuals.].

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davrovana

Join Date 05/2009

+61

Putting all those wolf pelts, skath fins, demon horns, drake teeth etc. to work in items instead of just cashing them in might be interesting, too.

Wouldn't it be interesting if you could also craft MOUNTS? Hmmm...if you have a friendly dragon or skath or harridan, you can begin breeding them?

Mounts and items are just about the only game objects you can't rename, hope crafting allows custom names.

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I'm surprised crafting is even a consideration considering how buggy/clunky so many current features are.

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Quoting Ratatosk7,

reply 40

I'm surprised crafting is even a consideration considering how buggy/clunky so many current features are.

I figure its always more fun to add more features
Meaby the devs are just trying to add whatever they think the community likes, I see it as a nice gesture that they come out like this.
Even though I think its a bad idea to focus on crafting just now.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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Quoting Kongdej,

reply 41

Quoting Ratatosk7, reply 40I'm surprised crafting is even a consideration considering how buggy/clunky so many current features are.

I figure its always more fun to add more features
Meaby the devs are just trying to add whatever they think the community likes, I see it as a nice gesture that they come out like this.
Even though I think its a bad idea to focus on crafting just now.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

I suppose, but whenever I load up the game all I notice are all the flaws. There are a lot of more important things that need work before feature creep kicks in, Pathfinding, AI, UI, City Management, Troop Design, Diplomacy etc. You can't use the 'its in beta' or 'it just got released' excuses anymore and saying its a far better product than WoM can only go so far. I've lost interest in the game since the recent confirmation that there will be no multiplayer, so I have no reason to be biased in my analysis of its current flaws. I just hate it when people prioritize 'hey look new shiny' and more stuff instead of fixing core issues. Between the bugs and the incorrect tooltips a new player would find the game very unintuitive, not everyone wants to read through bug reports on the forum to find out what still works/doesn't with every build. The way population is handled should balance pioneer spamming with growth better, and honestly should probably be completely overhauled or removed entirely, the recent changes haven't helped. This is more of a personal opinion but additional options on starting a world should be available, having the option (or a trait) to start near a shard would be great. I bet a lot of people restart the game if they aren't near any resources. Not to mention that the early game is pretty much based on luck and who happens to have the most land available nearby to spam pioneers on.

Compared to the above crafting just seems like an extra oddball thing that while it might be nice is not essential, similar to customizing the hairstyle of your spearmen. The major issue I've always seen in Stardock games (except Sins) is the lack of focus on the core design, with too much emphasis and time spent developing extraneous stuff that while nice and adds to the experience, should not be the focus.

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Quoting Ratatosk7,

reply 42

I suppose, but whenever I load up the game all I notice are all the flaws.

I know I know, look at my posts in this thread, were spoiled gamers... (Playing some old games really opens my eyes to the amount of flaws they actually had).
I can't help but see flaws in everything I play these days

My comment was more like "its not an evil intent to put in crafting, its more like they really want us to be happy" movement.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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I actually think the crafting idea would be a nice one if it could be implemented correctly. It would add depth to the unit creation feature, which while it doesn't feel like it should be lacking, is a bit.

I'm just not sure what entirely a crafted weapon entails. Better stats? Kind of boring. Spell-like abilities? Aren't those spells?

Maybe a spell-like ability that doesn't use mana? That could be very useful...

And how do you ensure that you're not making crystal way more powerful than metal, when it already feels like a pretty scarce resource...

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Quoting Simplicity123,

reply 44

I actually think the crafting idea would be a nice one if it could be implemented correctly. It would add depth to the unit creation feature, which while it doesn't feel like it should be lacking, is a bit.

To implement crafting to make trained units have more depths is doing it in a very complicated way, sure you could give more choices, but these choices would then have less importance than what I think each choice should be about, I don't reaaaally want to take hundreds of choices of +1 damage or +2 hp... that would be too much micro-choosing for my taste.

If you want to have trained units have more depth, you would need to make more interesting traits, and include a rock-paper-scissors-spock-lizzard approach to the trained units, you need some weapons as soft counters against either other weapons or other armor, etc. So you can't just run with 1 design.

I think crafting was meant to be for champions anyways, crafting a new weapon or armour like in Master of Magic, or Age of Wonders Shadow Magic, But right now magical items and armour are so plentiful that this would seem an almost redundant choice and you would only use it to min-max your heroes lategame...
If I get a crafting system, I would prefer if the crafting system was a core part of equipping your heroes, where you choose between elemental defenses, magical defenses, or physical defenses. But also I want to feel "forced" to craft a few items if I want my heroes to be that powerful, and not just relying on the random items that keep dropping from quests.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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The more I think about it the more fun I think having random crafted items would be. It wouldn't disrupt game balance too much, and it would add a minor element of excitement and surprise. I know lots of people like to have everything balanced and don't want a situation where their hero suddenly becomes powerful because of a random item drop, but I'm not like that. It would add that little rush you get after finishing a quest or defeating a lair and you wait to see what you get out of it.

I think there should be enough control where you can generally say what type of item you get (i.e. if you need a sword, but a sword + a tear of cyndrum + spider silk + whatever into the crafting pot), but not enough where you would control what effects you got. Maybe if you put in lots of spider sacks you'd have a slightly higher chance of getting poison, but I think it would be better without it. I rather like the gambling aspect of it, similar to Minecraft's enchanting, for example.

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killswitch469

Join Date 04/2003

+6

I would love to see crafting added to the game. However, I think that crafting should only be allowed in cities or a special crafting tiles and that crafting items should give experience. Also, the crafted items should only be for champs/sovs/henchmen and not trained units. There should be skill levels to the crafting ability and a chance to fail.

I would love to see the various items harvested from the wastes (demon horns, wolf pelts, etc) be combined with resources and mana and then turn into unique weapons, armors, consumables. etc.

So if you have troll blood, ironeer ale, a demon horn, metal, crystals and mana you could fashion a sword which would regenerate 1 hp a turn, add one to your armor and cause fear with a successful strike. However, depending on the skill and a rng you might get a flawless sword which could do all of that to a cracked sword which might only have one of those extra traits to a cursed sword that decreases your character by 1hp a turn.

This is a feature that would really add to the exploration aspect of the game in my opinion.

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Just unite the two smiting tech trees (iron & crystal) to create superior items, weapons, armor etc.

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Crafting is a great idea, but it should be a choice that forces you to forego other options. Meaning that crafting should require resources that severely hamper something else--perhaps a lot of city development--and the return should justify the loss, but be very different in its results.

I'm thinking of KotOR, and it's lackluster crafting, which didn't require any sacrifices to speak of, and resulted in weapons that were just as good as the ones you could otherwise acquire without crafting at that point in the game. For crafting to work, all mechanics aside, the sacrifice must be significant, and the end result--both in terms of quality, and visuals--should make your blood sing.

Just a thought.

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I wouldn't consider crafting to be a short list item. (My pet goal is still sieges, buildings, and elevation change in tactical battles). But if Crafting were added... Like in Age of Wonders (Shadow Magic especially) but not broken. Good luck with that.

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Quoting Alstein,

reply 22

I don't want it, because I don't think it can work, and if it could , it would be at the cost of 2-3 features I"d want more.

What I would like seeing is some random artifacts like broadswords that give bonuses beyond a normal broadsword, stuff like that.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I'd rather you just added more weapons with interesting effects.

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