No Multiplayer in Fallen Enchantress. » Forum Post by goodgimp

Well troll, actually in this case it would take alot of resources because of some technical issues with the way the game was coded. Take a minute out of your busy life and read some of the thread if you would like to know more.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 16

77% of the Demigod user base after its first year had never attempted to play a single multiplayer game. And that was a game designed as a multiplayer centric game. Chris Taylor and I double checked that number repeatedly because we were certain it had to be wrong. It wasn't.

wow, you can play Demigod as a single player, I ignored it FOR YEARS because I thought it was an MP only game

oh, and thanks for taking time to write these stats

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I never liked any kind of mutiplayer video game of any kind whether I was winning or losing.

I play video games to have some time alone and to see how amazing the technology of my computer and the program design can be and that includes it's artificial intelligence.

No matter what you are still playing with a machine that creates digital images whether

with someone else, friend or whatever human player there is always AI physics and digital

number crunching and stats involved. If I want to to compete with someone for my ego or prove something

to them I'll do it face to face, in the flesh whether it be pool, boxing whatever. In multiplayer video games

there are cheats, exploiting and rushed tactics and strategies simplified that have to be rush and simplified by

the opponent in order to win or even just stay a float. Thus good thought out strategies and tactics get thrown

out the door.

Come on video gaming is an escape and there is nothing wrong with that. I like my friends, family and

whoever else but I would rather be in a world and situation where I don't have to deal with them

dull humans I mean after all we are fighting giants, heroes, demons, aliens, robots, cyborgs, super bionic soldiers, wizards, gods

on a machine that if programmed right could be more of a challenge than most ordinary humans, in a world where you can see things you'll

never see anywhere else do magic and defy the laws of nature go where you'll never be able to go in real life, be in a situation you can only imagine yourself in like owning and ruling 10 magical cities.

who wants to win or lose against scrawny Chris Johnson who has thick glasses and has made a lot of

foolish mistakes in his life like all humans. And if you really are a tennis player or paint ball, boxer

with something to prove then I rather actually compete with you in that way.

What's more many of us don't have the time to meet for multiplayer games.

We have busy lives.

But nonetheless I am not against having multiplayer for those who want it its just

not the meat of any video game to me. Just a bunch of maps throw together with everything opened up for ordinay people to compete on in haste.

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Quoting Heavenfall,

reply 14

If I may be a bit more constructive, I can understand the disappointment even though I don't share it.

So, how about you folks that deeply care for multiplayer start a petition somewhere, and post a link on these forums? Or how about SD themselves put one up somewhere. Really, anything to give a more concrete number that shows how many actually think the game depends on multiplayer support.

Hi, can't remember when I signed up... maybe it was for Galactic civilisation 2 and that was to ask if and when multiplayer would be added to that game. If you hold a vote on the forums about how many people want to play multiplayer then it'll give you false information because only regulars to this site will vote and I bet most of them would say "SP is the only thing thats important".

I have three brothers (one owns his own PC so we've bought two copies of the best MP games) and I have four friends that would love to play a multiplayer version of this game idea, so atleast five copies will be bought on my "selling" them to my friends and brother... I told a friend to buy Galciv 2 because there were hints multiplayer may come at some point, the game was fun however we are still just waiting (does it have multiplayer?).

My friends and I own several copies of sins and have just bought sins rebellion and are getting ready to play LANs at my place, Multiplayer is the big draw for most people today and any good RTS, TBS, FPS, TPS, MMO and action flight sim will tell you this. I really want to support this small company because their ideas have been pretty good so far however the world doesn't turn to the tune of charity, my friends and will not purchase this game or many other games that do not have multiplayer.

I personally though really like the WOM/FE story, so I'll probably buy FE (think I bought WOM after 2011). Where you would've had five customers you now only have one possible consumer due to the lack of MP.

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Quoting StevenAus,

reply 26

I agree with a lot of your points, but the way I see it, nobody and no company is perfect. Stardock has been trying to make the best replacement they can for the failed WoM and if that means that the initial release has to come without MP, I understand. Especially since many are getting FE and possibly the next Elemental title for free/no additional cost. And as you can see from Frogboy's responses, they have already put a lot of infrastructure into MP for FE, so I would be very surprised if at least a quality co-op component doesn't make it into an early expansion. So maybe while it was technically a broken promise by timeframe (late and not really functional in WoM, and no MP in initial FE release), if you exclude the timeframe and see whether Elemental does in fact have a quality multiplayer component within the first two expansions of FE (and it might even make it in the first), then it is not as black and white.

I understand that the company needs to get some money into itself, to deliver a polished and playable game as soon as possible to start making money but there will be many like my friends that wont even look at it if it doesn't have MP. If MP is implemented in an expansion then I'll easly sell this game to my friends however I'm worried that FE without MP will only sell to the core fans and most of them will be getting the title for free... so this great idea may die before we can enjoy multiplayer.

There are issues that come with the "waiting for player combat" at the end of each turn and thats why games like endless space allow players to engage in combat while others are taking turns, turn time limits, combat time limits and I find the extra time is good for checking you tech trees and economy.

Please don't let WOM/FE universe die, I really want my Kingdom and its living god leader to do battle with my friends avatars lol

PS. I originally bought WOM because of the multiplayer component (heard after purchase that it was faulty) but the idea is a fantasy readers dream come true, who doesn't want to rule as a demidod and destroy your friends ans strangers?

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Quoting Murteas,

reply 57

I really fail to see the "I didn't get what was promised" argument. You may not have liked the MP in EWoM, but it was there. So you were never lied to. FE was never sold to you as guaranteed to have MP, in fact as has been pointed out, Frogboy announced that MP was in jeopardy months ago and most of the people responded that they wanted him to focus on SP over MP.

I would love to play with other people, but even if FE has MP I will never play it: know why? I don't have time to sit and play a 4x game with other people for hours. In fact, I would say that most of the people who would play would want to have a way to save the MP game to play later, since who really has 8 hours at a time to play a computer game. Not the majority.

In any case, add me to the people that are glad that SP was focused on. I'd much rather have 200+ spells, monsters, etc. MP is low priority in my mind.

The older consumer isn't all that important, younger consumers still in school is where the money is and thats why MP is so big. They have time to plan and talk about what game they'll play together after school and on the weekend or LANs on long weekends... I'm not sure what the figures are but I'm willing to bet money that ages 7-20 make up the majority of consumers.

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Quoting Luke_strider,

reply 88

Quoting Bellack, reply 64
Ok why would you have to rewrite TC if you had two players fighting? All the rules and such should be the same as if you were playing the NPC. And personally the MP expereance should be excatly the same as SP. No short cuts to make it faster for the ADD kids I would like the full SP game in the MP.

When they are talking about having to rewrite TC for MP, they are not talking about re-designing it. As you say, from a end-user perspective all the rules and such _should_ be exactly the same as playing the NPC. The problem is that the *underlying code* is not set up to handle multiplayer and would need to be gutted. This is what takes a lot of time.

As a quick example (and this might get teccy, sorry), I imagine currently, when CREATURE_A hits CREATURE_B it rolls, a dice and directly removes the health from CREATURE_B and then immediately process any knock on effects, end of story.

If it was to work in MP, lets imagine you have CREATURE_A belonging to PC_A and CREATURE_B belonging to PC_B. On PC_A, you tell CREATURE_A to hit CREATURE_B. What would have to happen was PC_A would send a message to PC_B to say that this attack had happened and then wait around for the responce. PC_B would then have to process that message and decide that it took damage. PC_B would then have to calculate any knock on effects, relay this back to PC_A, which then makes it happen on his machine.

As you can see, in the MP case the code has to sit around a lot more waiting for messages from the other PC, which involves a very different style of coding than just processing everthing right there and then. And then that not to mention having to worry about making sure the TC's are kept in sync and handling any cases where they aren't (due to messages being lost, etc).

I've always wondered why it would be different, how can RTS games do it better than TBS if its so much more difficult?

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Quoting ddd888,

reply 90

Quoting Frogboy, reply 16

At GDC, friends of my from Firaxis told me that only around 4% of the Civilization IV user base had ever played a single MP game (not finished a game, simply tried it).

that doesnt high tbh

also do you know games in this century are like "parfumes" ?

i know LOTS of ppl who buy DOZENS of games on steam or get gifts etc and NEVER EVER play them

i mean they download and install and play 5 min and then its over

lot of ppl do so

for a good statistics you should for example cut those ppl who played less than X hours total, who cares if someone played civ for 5 hours in his life and never attempted a online game? he just isnt a civ 4 player at all

Still payed for the game though, cutting MP means cutting consumers and I wouldn't have bought WOM if I knew the MP was broken beforehand. the hard core SP are getting FE for free anyway, good MP will bring in new customers that are actually going to pay for the content and expansions while the SP just pay for expansions.

Not sure why the choice has to be great SP or crap SP and MP... why can't we have Great SP and just substitute AI for other Human players? the answer "code programing doesn't support it" doesn't make any sense to me, why do it wrong to start with?

Isn't the reason this whole debate is going on is because a poor game was made and now they're making up for it by giving FE (remake of WOM) to players that are fans of stardock (zero money changing hands apart from those people that like TBS and didn't know about WOM) while cutting MP which leads to very few new fans buying the game and therefore bringing in revenue.

It was said before in this thread but didn't seem to be commented on, when games are reviewed alot of weight is put on MP and that affects the score... alot of people don't even look at a game unless it has MP, IMO not having MP is a poor business decision especially when your core fan groupd (forum users) are getting the game for free lol

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Quoting Pappy_Van_Winkle,

reply 101

MP'ers are just rude by nature I guess. After reading this thread it reminds me of the rudeness of MP game chat lobbys I have seen in CIV and others. This type of behavior is exactly why I would rather play SP. Sometimes I think MP'ers wish for MP games just so they can show their ass to everyone, every chance they get. Why ruin a good game just so the MP'ers can have their day in game chats?

I have been following FE for over a year too, I certainly don't feel cheated that MP is not part of the game. As a matter of fact, I am glad they stuck with SP.

Cry me a river MP'ers, I don't think anyone really cares!

Lol guess people who prefer MP are more competitive by nature, also alot of MP games are played by younger people usually so for them trash talk is part of the MP. not sure how trash talk in MP has ruined any MP game... you can just, mute them or ignore them cant you?

Must be why things like consoles never took off, who'd want to play MP anyway?

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Quoting Kongdej,

reply 133

Quoting Lantros, reply 131@admkiza

First, we talk about a genre here. We talk about a 4X Game. Not only that, we talk about a turnbased game. We don´t talk about MP overall. And here are some numbers from frogboy about your so called "backbone" for this genre.

Now, that said, someone asked for some numbers. Here are some facts that help provide some context to the discussion.

77% of the Demigod user base after its first year had never attempted to play a single multiplayer game. And that was a game designed as a multiplayer centric game. Chris Taylor and I double checked that number repeatedly because we were certain it had to be wrong. It wasn't.

Over 90% of the Sins of a Solar Empire user base at the time we were about to release Trinity had never attempted to play a single multiplayer game.

At GDC, friends of my from Firaxis told me that only around 4% of the Civilization IV user base had ever played a single MP game (not finished a game, simply tried it).

Fewer than 1% of the WOM user base attempted multiplayer. I don't mean played a game. I mean simply went to the MP lobby (it adds an active flag to your SD account if you simply went to the main MP screen).

Thats some cool numbers,

I am still trying to figure out what 4x means ...

But while I am here, I can understand why they might not go through the hazzle of making MP ready for the release (I think they will implement it if the game becomes successfull enough, I hope they release it just to please meeee).

I do still hope they will work on it before that so I can play with my mate in Coop, meaby even just consider a Hotseat function.

for Admkiza - I know they thought about how and why to implement Multiplayer, its just resource taking, and they want to use most of theyre resources improving other parts of the game, and will focus getting a "Complete" game before adding multiplayer, it would feel empty to rush out a multiplayer, then to realize they didnt have enough time to polish the "Real" game.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

If forum users are mainly SP (don't know how AI can be any fun) and I'm guessing the regulars will be getting FE for free then how much return on release day does SD expect... many people will not be buying the game unless it has MP (same content as SP) and as that one marketing guy said MP are the loudest of any group and tell casual player friends to buy this game.

Will release revenue justify an MP expansion, I doubt it and if MP does happen then its because SD is truely in trouble and realise working MP is the only thing that'll bring in money because the most of the SP didn't pay a cent for it. However I'm sure SD thought long and hard about releasing the game for free to those pre 2011 owners of WOM so hopefully they realise that their figures aren't correct and that MP will play LAN anytime that is possible.

Nothing like looking into the eyes of your enemy while you type "i'm in your base ucking your shit" and when your good enough having all your friend openly discuss how there "League of Nations" is going to take you down because for whatever reason your good at strategy games. (someone always betrays the league for my protection though hahahahaha)

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As easily as one can argue that without MP the game won't sell, I can argue that mostly people prefer MP for the challenge. Let's face it, most TBS has weak AI. By that I mean AI that uses ridiculous cheats to be even close to competitive with a human player. A great AI would probably convince many people that generally only buy games with MP to get FE. A good game is a good game, even without MP. That is the core of the issue for me. Is the game good? That is what needs to be proven if MP is to ever be a possibility.

I would like to destroy you fools online, but without modding MP support I will eventually tire of your pain. And that is not even on the table at this point.

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Quoting ,

quoting post

I'll be blunt. I can understand the reasons for not including MP, based on time, budget, or a combination of the two. What is really, and I mean really rubbing me the wrong way is how the information regarding the complete removal of MP was just kind of dribbled out two days before beta. I would not have purchased Elemental without MP, and while that game was a bust I've been patiently waiting for a year as Stardock has stated they would like to make things right. It's not an issue of money for me, it's the fact that I feel that I've been strung along for years now.

If Fallen Enchantress was an attempt to "make things right" with the customer base, it has certainly had the opposite effect for me. I fully acknowledge that, as a TBS gamer who gets the most enjoyment from coop with friends, I'm in the minority. I get that. But I feel I've been lied to and strung along and it's left me more than a little pissed off.

I honestly and sincerely wish the people working on FE the utmost success, but I think I'm done with Stardock. I'm not going to do anything silly like a boycott, it's not that, it's just that I don't feel like I can trust a damn thing they say, so why bother following their game development?

Anyway, this isn't some righteous crusade or anything, I just wanted to make my voice heard. Don't worry, I'll let myself out and make sure the door doesn't collide with my backside. For the majority of people who were only interested in single player, I hope FE turns out to be everything you hoped!

You, sir have may unrivaled respect for getting the point with every word.For most of the rest:

What is a game without Multiplayer? I can't believe what I read here. I can't.

What would Civ be without MP? What would GalCiv be without? Every HoMM Game?

I have endless difficulties to imagine that you people who tell me "we have all no issues with no mp" and " 80% of 4x gamers dislike mp" are gamers at all.

I do play SP. I do like SP. But what you don't get is, Fallen Enchantress is no 4X.It is no RTS. You can't even cvompare it to Space RTS.

Fallen Enchantress can still be what HoMM>4 / Disciples / AoW should have been and badly failed. The logical Combination of Torchlight and Civ, of Minecraft and Alpha Centauri, of DAoC and BattleChess. It could be the spark of Hope for HOMM4 Players like me. (which quite almost never played HOMM in SP)...God, imagine TQ without mp. I can't.

I know I provoke HOMM4 bashing now. Feel free. I hate these empty arguments about it. And I heard them all. I don't care.

I do feel a little shocked that there is no mp, reading it a few days after registration. But I don't mind the money. explained in the last sentence.

But I guess not all is lost about mp.

And thus we need no empiric evidence here, let me tell you something. 9 / 10 HoMM only play MP. 10/10 Civ Players played MP on a civ product and I guess all liked it. >15 million people play minecraft MP.PC platform only. I guess ca. 350k people would play it if it was only singleplayer. Think about it..seriously.

I wouldn't mind waiting 6 months more on a finished product. not a single second. All here should know where actionsim leads too.

I would honestly pay full price for a mp DLC or Addon.

And Stardock, I love FE SP so far, keep up the good work.

P.S. english not mother tongue so pls be kind

P.P.S : And non modded mp would be nice.

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This is so BS and i'm also done with Stardock...Bad move and heres why...yes I do agree more focus on singleplayer is better, definately better content...However, to remove a feature that was already there, WTF...Trying to right a wrong my ars, yes u sold me a half complete piece of crap and to rectify this by giving me fallen enchantress for free, yes its a better game but you removed the only reason I play this game and lost a few sales...My point about multiplayer is that...if your not even going to attempt to pull a bad ars game that satifies as many as possible, then why even make amends...Yah so what they got to focus more on singleplayer, are you F in kidding me...Thats just retarded thinking...they make buttloads of money...No Excuses...they can afford to pay more people to work on it, have 2 teams or 10 teams of programmers working on singleplayer and multiplayer....This is why I say, stardock is just the same as most companies, they don't give a shht...and there just being lazy...

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Quoting rpm081581,

reply 164

This is so BS and i'm also done with Stardock...Bad move and heres why...yes I do agree more focus on singleplayer is better, definately better content...However, to remove a feature that was already there, WTF...Trying to right a wrong my ars, yes u sold me a half complete piece of crap and to rectify this by giving me fallen enchantress for free, yes its a better game but you removed the only reason I play this game and lost a few sales...My point about multiplayer is that...if your not even going to attempt to pull a bad ars game that satifies as many as possible, then why even make amends...Yah so what they got to focus more on singleplayer, are you F in kidding me...Thats just retarded thinking...they make buttloads of money...No Excuses...they can afford to pay more people to work on it, have 2 teams or 10 teams of programmers working on singleplayer and multiplayer....This is why I say, stardock is just the same as most companies, they don't give a shht...and there just being lazy...

As I understand, those who used MP function was only about 3% of the community whereas to bring over MP fuction to FE would take as much financially as they've already put towards the game. Anyone can see with those numbers that MP isn't worth the effort.

That said, SD is STILL considering MP for one of their expansions (again as I understand), so to abandon them now would be to shut any chance out later.

Does the expression "if they build it, you will come" still have merit to you. If not, then maybe multiplayer really isn't worth it, and SD should focus on more Scenarios. (I would sure like that as MP in a TBS is USELESS...but that's imo)

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Quoting rpm081581,

reply 164

This is why I say, stardock is just the same as most companies, they don't give a shht...and there just being lazy...

Incorrect. Stop trolling and start reading. The very first page of this thread has the CEO explaining why they can't afford to do MP yet. It is still on the table for later. You shouldn't post a random rant without taking some time to read the thread. Makes you look foolish. But hey, it's the internet. People make mistakes.

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I'm personally a sp (single player) sort of person and would rather have a glorious sp game than a game that is shabby sp and mp. I much rather have long rpg'ish 'scenarios' than mp and kind of hope the next expansion is additional complexity to the game; includes the ability to use books in the trade screen (can't have a post without that comment

) and a very long 'scenario' with lots of complex rpg stuff

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A beautiful game like FE begs to be shared with friends and family. MP would be a great addition to this already fun game and it's nice to see that there is still the possibility in the future. Hopefully it comes to fruition...

Not everyone plays random strangers online in video games. I play exclusively with my brother and other close friends where the minimal trash talking is always in good nature and only adds to the experience. Nothing like having a brew with friends and discussing game-play and strategies.

Human opponents also add more flavor to the video game experience than any AI can due to various playing styles, strengths, and weaknesses. Even the variance in flaws between human opponents makes the gaming more 'realistic.'

However, the devs did a great job on the SP, and I am definitely enjoying this game especially as someone who is playing an Elemental game for the first time. I really hope FE has a good amount of sales. In this day and age of consolized twitcher games, we need more strategy games like FE proliferating the market once again.

I did notice that this particular thread has a large number of views as well...that must account for something in regards to multiplayer demand!

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Polistes

Join Date 02/2008

+19

Actually they did an offical poll asking people if they would pay a dollar for multiplayer in Fe and a majority said no IIRC. This game really is not geared to casual multiplayer, considering the settling phase can take hours.

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The demand for multiplayer goes back more than a decade. I had a few acquaintances working as developers who did a couple of really successful TBS games back in the 1990s. They then showed me a good alpha, easily ten years ago or more, of an interesting strategy/RPG/economic sim hybrid set in ancient Greece among legendary heroes and gods.

At one company, the head of accountancy killed a deal, claiming that no game set in Ancient Greece would ever be a success. The company's big name producer even offered to take on the role of shepherding the title at every stage; it was no go. The money wouldn't be approved, by somebody who knew nothing about games and therefore had all the answers.

At another, the CEO heard and saw everything they had to offer, and then said that if it didn't include multiplayer, he wasn't interested. Singleplayer was dead. (Mind the date, again.)

Periodically we hear that singleplayer games are dead, and that the PC is dead. Also, the keyboard and mouse are dead. The fact that the people who are usually spending a fortune getting these messages out are also the ones making games that are multiplayer, non-PC, or game controller-only never seems to be passed along, or considered as possibly biasing their opinions in the slightest.

I have nothing against multiplayer. But the idea that every game that appears must have multiplayer or it will end up crying in a corner, abandoned by all, simply isn't borne out by the facts. It's a very expensive process to produce a game that's equally good as a singleplayer and multiplayer experience, and there are still many people who prefer singleplayer.

There's nothing wrong with that.

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Alstein

Join Date 07/2004

+55

I'd like to see MP personally, but I'd like to see other features more. This game has a lot of direction for expansion.

I'd be curious if MP could work as a kickstarter- I think that would be the fairest way to judge whether it should be done- let the MP community pay for it.

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Quoting GFireflyE,

reply 165

As I understand, those who used MP function was only about 3% of the community whereas to bring over MP fuction to FE would take as much financially as they've already put towards the game. Anyone can see with those numbers that MP isn't worth the effort.

Those numbers arent really explained at all, so I dont think you can rely on them to say no on would play MP. How are they gathered? Where do they come from? As I understand it you have some games that are complete flops as examples, if you hate WoM your hardly going to go online are you? An demigod I seem to recall had some major issues on release as well, perhaps that put a lot of people off, once a game gets a bad rep it really tanks any hope of MP taking off.

Plus I want to know if these numbers include LAN or justonline etc. I know I played CIV 4 exclusively MP, I have never played single player past a couple of introductory games, but this was all LAN, I never made an account etc with firaxis. So did I get "counted" as playing MP?

The same with Sins pre rebellion, all LAN. I live in a coutnry wehere the internet sucks and is really expensive. I still played lots of MP tho.

Oh and finally what percentage actually played the game at all, vis a vis using flops. For example I simply didnt play Sots 2, I have literally less then 60 minutes playtime in steam, 0 MP time. It sucked HARD. Now the stats on that will say oh 0.0003 percent of people went online so why should Sots 3 have MP?

Well I played Sots 1 MP all the time, I loved it. Simply put you cant use Sots 2 as an example of people who want MP as it was a complete failure. Could this apply to the games cited as reasons why MP is not worth it?

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HAHAHA, are you kidding me...Stardock corporation CEO said they can't afford it...this company has made a ton of money on its software products and games for years, and thats the excuse??? HAHAHA Listen, i've been a customer of stardock for 15 plus years, i've spent hundreds of dollars on there software and games...I have never in the 15 years of business i've done with them seen a remote chance of idiocy until now. I'm sorry but to change what was originally offered to begin with is a major fail...especially over excuses like we cant afford too, it'll hamper single player development HAHAHA, do u people not have any clue...We The Minority Paid For The Original Too...How is it right that they single us out, remove a feature THAT WAS ALREADY THERE IN WOM...really hahaha, i'm moving on from this BS...Good luck all...maybe someday they will re-implement multiplayer, but to not do so right off the bat, wait a go stardock for not slamming one out of the park. No Excuses...if u accept excuses you accept trivial meaningless sht, Screw That...

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Quoting Polistes,

reply 169

Actually they did an offical poll asking people if they would pay a dollar for multiplayer in Fe and a majority said no IIRC. This game really is not geared to casual multiplayer, considering the settling phase can take hours.

Now I am for MP and I perfer a non-fast pace MP expereance. Since I don't suffer from ADD as many seem to do these days, I want the entire SP expereance when I play SP in ANY GAME.

The only things that I would want in a MP version is a LAN/Hotseat (which would allow me to play multipule empires) /TCP/IP and a simultaneous turn system similar to AOW:SM. That way I can still do thinks while waiting for opponents to finish thier turns.

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Thank you for not distracting your developmental efforts and resources to provide MP. As a person who has seen many good SP games suffer due to the inclusion of MP features, I appreciate the decision to not pursue it for the initial release. I'd even appreciate it more if you skipped MP altogether to finalize and work out the many quirks/bugs with the SP game that remain, then continue to add content to it. If the SP starts to suffer or put on the back burner, to pursue MP features I fear you will alienate the larger group of players than the few who say MP is a must.

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O.K.

I just ordered a porsche.

Didn´t choose a color for it.

I hope it will be GrAsSfRoGgYgReEn.

My neighbor and the porsche seller said there is no such color.

But it must be GrAsSfRoGgYgReEn.

Nice discussion

kesmai

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