Kestrel's Hybrid Oak 2.0

Ke5trel

Join Date 02/2008

+118

Kestrel's Hybrid Oak 2.0

The meta has shifted quite a bit since I posted my first Hybrid build here.

Since then it's become important to get Shield III at level 7-8 so that you can lockdown enemy portals without fear of interruption.

That makes it hard to cram Spirits/minions into an effective Oak build before level 10, and most games are decided by that point.

So I'm going to post my WIP Hybrid Oak build with a caveat, as follows:

*This isn't the miracle build Hybrid used to be before gameplay evolved. Under given circumstances it's more effective than a typical Assassin Oak build or Minion Oak build, and that's about all I can claim. I'll go over what makes it a good build later on.

Favor -

BoTF if tanking. Anklet for fast self and minions. Horn for unkillable minions. Vial for staying power in the face of attrition. Wand for burst self and minion heals. Ring for fierce minions. Cloak for escapes. The nice thing about this build is you can branch out a bit from HP as king. Me, I still go for Blood because I like to brawl, but it's down to your playstyle.

Starting Items -

Monks, one mana pot (wait for the pot, it puts you 5 seconds behind but lets your mana last twice as long)

Skills -

1. Shield
2. Ward
3. Penitence
4. Ward II
5. Surge
6. Shield II
7. Shield III
8. Ward III
9. Save
10. Surge II / Ward IV
11-14. Penitence II-IV
15. Surge III

Gear -

Vlemish Helm
Mino and Siege I
Unbreakable Boots
Plenor Helm
Nimoth Plate

Upgrades -

Priests/Angels or Catas

The above + supply of Sigil/Port/Lock is probably all you can afford, because you won't be rocking the kills with this build. If you do end up with a bunch of gold you can upgrade your idol siege and healers and get a Wand of Speed or tank up with Nemoth Ring or Orb of Defiance.

Wand of Speed is nice because it increases not only your speed, which will be handy for portal grabs, but also the move speed of your minions. That's important because they can't hit something while chasing it.

Orb is good for this Oak the same way it is for a Tower Rook. You can sit back and relax while your abilities cooldown and your bishops heal you and the flag changes ownership and your minions take a giant bite out of the guy trying to beat you up..

Flavor -

Death by 1000 cuts. You want to bring out as many small, angry, confusing minions as you can and focus them all on a single DG or tower and you want to do all of this the first time you come back from the shop. You can achieve that with a single level of each idol minion (minos too, for the extra bodies) and two levels of spirits. That's 12 minions for around 1500 gold and 2 skill points, pretty good value for so much cannon fodder.

Once you have your little army out you can hold flags against most DGs and destroy enemy towers without risk, or support allies from across the map.

You gave up your primary Nuke (maxed Penitence) and your passives (Divine Justice, Soul Power) to get that, though, so make sure you have staying power and burst damage coming from elsewhere.

You are saving Penitence exclusively for interrupts.

It takes a while for minion damage to show, so you have enough HP and armor to last until your opponent has to back off. If you see an incoming gank shield and port out, or Orb and chill while your minions eat lunch.

How a 3v3 Cata game plays out -

You are usually at Forti flag because you can hold it. If you are against a TB or Occ i.e. good AoE ask to switch lanes, you won't be as effective. As soon as your cannon fodder is up (level 5-6) you are going to start pushing hard on the lane tower. If it has a DG guarding it focus your minions on him until he backs off.

Rinse, repeat. Once lane tower is down you are sending your minions repeatedly to take down portal towers. If your opponents act quickly to defend portal towers then you can decoy by grabbing at the portal and Shield/porting out when it gets hot. Do this a couple times and you have a clear lane to the portal.

Once the portal is open you lock it, your team gets grunts, you hold your home portals, and you either assign your minions to defend the portal or take out more towers. If your opponents are good they will lockdown the portal you opened. Fine. Switch lanes and open up the other side or just wait the lock out while farming.

If your team backs you up you should win right here.

Speaking of backup - throughout play you want to keep your teammates from being ganked. That means you port to them with Shield ready when they hit 2k hp, not when they hit 400 hp..

Who this counters, hard - DA, Snipe Reg, Assassin Erb, Rook, Sedna, Assassin Oak (until Surge II)
Who this mostly works against - UB, Minion Erb, Minion Oak, AF Reg, Assassin Oak (After Surge II), QoT
Who counters this - TB, Occ

What I like about this build - You have your minions set up with 1500g and level 4. If you want to drift back towards an Assassin build from that you can without issue, but you get the benefits of all those minions throughout play. As a hybrid you can sharpen your minions into little knives, without sacrificing all of your survivability to do it. And finally you can ignore Pent II and up if you want to and just fill in Morale to shift into a full Minion build.

Also, this build kills roaches dead. I'm looking at you, DA

What I don't like about this build - you can't set up Penitence ganks and you don't have the stamina Divine Justice gives you. The lack of gank assists and last-hits means your income will be lower than other Oaks, which means you can't tank as aggressively in most games. Finally, Oculus was pretty much made to counter this build.

REPLAY

Thoughts, comments?

Thanks for reading
Kestrel

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Just to reach back a bit to what LK and Hedgie and Epi are saying about Shield III - i.e. if you don't mess up then you don't need it.

1. The ability is OP in Cata portal locking. If you aren't playing by house rules that forbid it then I don't understand how you can avoid getting it at 7 or 8, because it's such a threat. I'd like to see Stun-Immunity come in at Shield IV or V rather than III, or even just lessen duration of Shield III to 5 seconds, but with the game we have now it seems irresponsible to play Oak in a tight game without III. Just my opinion, and I'd like to see arguments and skilled games replays where that isn't the case.

2. About half the time I'm using Shield it's to save someone who over-exposed and is getting ganked. The other half of the time it's to allow someone on my team to increase their flee threshold, and each level of the skill up to III magnifies that effect. The frustration is that my Oak is not as strong as an individual, but the flipside is that with coordinated allies who know they have a shield coming my team is far stronger. In that sense I think Shield is the best offensive ability in the game, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this one, too

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awuffleablehedgie

Join Date 04/2009

+60

That's my entire argument. Spirit or even late-shield Hybrid is NOT a very strong demigod to share a lane with. It's just a matter-of-fact. Assassin Oak is sooo much better in most 2v2 or 3v3 combat situations because of the extra leverage Shield gives. You can't run without shield if you're sharing a lane or if you have to port to the other side of the map to save people. It's team utility is HUGE.

I don't see ... portal runs at level 7/8 a very good idea or OP. It's a cold day in hell when you're alone enough to walk all the way to the portal against good players. If I'm laned mana side against an Oak I follow him like a puppy dog. He isn't walking away from me and if he wants to do Shield III abuse bullshit,that's his 250 gold: not mine. I never port on him and I don't shop unless he shops. Shield III chain-locking only becomes invaluable if you actually GET a portal.

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No, an assasin oak is actually relatively weak in straight combat; he's fine for chasing ganking and suicide runs with shield and certainly very good as support but compared to other demigods? He loses even with health flag to erebus/UB(well obviously)/sedna/rook/OC and qot(note that those are all the demigods that are seriously considered at high level play) in a straight fight for the entire early game and usually midgame.

A hybrid oak on the other hand can push most of them out(not UB but noone can. and OC and qot can be troublesome) and more importantly he very very dangerous to towers as well as synergizing with armor redux. Later game when portal grabs become more important hybrid oak can quickly pick up shield III(you can get it at 10) and still provide that core utility to his team.

Seriously hedgie, you can come play me with cloack oak and CoN erebus.

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It's a valid point, I PUG mostly so things are more disorganized. I'm almost always going to be left alone soon after getting III, or with a DG who can't push me off the portal. As long as I'm not needed to prevent a certain gank then I can go to work.

Shield III chain-locking only becomes invaluable if you actually GET a portal.

The portal is icing. The spent 250g is worth it if I get left alone and any of the following happens, and at least one of them usually does:

1. My opponents have to chose between saving one of their portal towers from my minions or the portal from me

2. At least one enemy DG ports to me. Usually in PUG games they all pile onto the ping, which leaves the map wide open for my allies

3. I cap and lock the portal

4. The enemy loses offensive momentum

LifeKatana - Read what Hedgie wrote. You disagree and then say the same thing In a team lane the Assassin will always be more desirable (unless maybe you are teamed against DA/Sedna or similar). In a solo lane Oak with minions makes sense (unless against a good TB, etc).

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Cloak oak is fun, but not as effective as BoF and it's great for ganks. BoF adds a lot of staying power not only in the early levels but throughout the game.

I love playing games without shield, the additional damage is just a lot of fun. I find that shield is too useful though in pre versus pre and higher level games. It also let you stay out in the field longer as well as keep teammates alive.

Also, playing oak without shield always pisses your teammates off lol.

Here's a post from october (mid screen)

http://forums.demigodthegame.com/366608

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Lifekatana - Read what Hedgie wrote. You disagree and then say the same thing In a team lane the Assassin will always be more desirable (unless maybe you are teamed against DA/Sedna or similar). In a solo lane Oak with minions makes sense (unless against a good TB, etc).

No I didnt. You wrote that assasin oak is better in teamgameplay and since Demigod is a teamgame that would automatically mean Assasin is better all around. This is not the case, assasin oak is just very very widespread due to ease of play and of course immortality. I wrote that the damage you get from not taking shield EARLY far outweighs the benefits you get from shield III(early midgame). An assasin oak is nigh-immortal yes, but he will be pushed out everytime by just about everyone. And this is relevant in teamgames too, the damage you get from spirits+pent absolutely demolishes everyone without super AOE(ie TB, who noones uses, and UB who is OP anyway and shouldn't be compared with).

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awuffleablehedgie

Join Date 04/2009

+60

I wasn't saying that you would get CoN Erebus + CoN Oak... the point I'm making is that it is extremely difficult to get away from that combination and you can literally overextend by just standing on a flag. Let's say you walk up to the mana flag and not one but both of them port on you. What do you do?

They have full hp, it takes time for your spirits to "munch" up demigods, and a level-ed up mass charm completely screws them up (let's say they are at level 8 and they didn't take mist. They'll probably have 2 points in charm which is a 6 second stun if I recall correctly). Yes, you can interrupt Mass Charm but if you're doing the whole pent+spirits == rape then that is no longer an option. You can choose to save Pent to interrupt MC or you can choose to use Pent + Spirits off the bat for damage.

Now you've got Surge of Faith (nukes your spirits halfway, if you're suffering from the minion hp bug he might get some insta-kills) -> CoN -> Pent while Erebus bites you. Wait 4 seconds so that Pent comes off of CD, start casting MC. Now what, you sigil...? Now, Oak can either blow Pent on you again (enabling you just to port away) and you've lost 750 gold to their 500 or try to save it and get a kill anyway (they can chase wayyyyy past towers. Oak has Shield III, Erebus has BS). Even if one of your teammates ports to try to save your ass, there is 750 gold again...

So what's your options? Never walk up and cap a flag? Back away from a flag whenever you see a port coming in (oh, I'll abuse that, I'll flash fake ports to you alllllll game)?

Sure, I'm bringing up 2v1 here and this means that your teammates probably are dominating the hp side of the map (unless one of them ports, that is...). But that is all CoN Oak + Blood Erebus do. Gankgankgankgankgank. That's the point I'm making: other demigods have a way of surving it at level 8. Sedna has heal to stop the Bite/Pent debuffs, Oak has Shield III, Erebus has Batswarm, Rook (should) have at least a few towers up before walking up to cap a flag anyway.

Now maybe I'm misunderstanding your sekkrit build up to level 8 but it is probably:

1. Pent/Ward

2. Ward/Pent

3. SAVE

4. Pent II + Ward II

5. Surge of Faith

6. SAVE

7. Pent III + Ward III

8. Shield I or Divine Justice I or Soul Power I

with one of the skills at 8 possibly taken at either 3 or 6 and Pent being knocked down in priority.

Now, I'm not a fantastic CoN Oak and certainly not a good Erebus. But I can theorycraft as well as the next guy and that's how I would play against you knowing your build and strategy before hand. That said, if I was the Oak, I would just go counter-minion build anyway :shrug:

Even with 2 mana helms (which means no currency. not a big deal, but still), if you're spamming Ward (all of 200 mana, I know, but lets say you lay out at least 3 flags in a period of 4 minutes, that's still one ability) AND Surge AND a high-level pentitence and if you don't have Divine Justice... I can oom you by looking at you. -.-

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ive always found with oak, that if you dont buff his minions through morale or some gloves, they are just cannon fodder. I dont see how this build is superior to pure assassin or pure minon because of these two points. However Ill do this once in awhile just because i love seeing so many spirits. thanks kestrel for posting another flavor of oak. He has many!

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well, you do buff your minions, by putting down a ward. The armor it provides is pretty substantial. Also, it is used to enhance your damage in a fight, so if they die, that means someone wasn't attacking you and you could autoattack more.

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Quoting lethstang,

reply 33

Where this is better than Assassin Oak - soloing a lane, crushing buildings, pushing off DGs without AoE

Where this is better than Minion Oak - supporting allies, capping and holding portals

The caveat is that hybrids can't support as well as straight assassins or solo as well as pure minion builds - jack of all trades, master of none

The build also works better in 2v2 than alternatives, imo

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I remember omicron's spirit oak. I don't what was his build but it was pretty devastating in 2vs2

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awuffleablehedgie

Join Date 04/2009

+60

Quoting GM-Mithrandar,

reply 36

I remember omicron's spirit oak. I don't what was his build but it was pretty devastating in 2vs2

1. Ward

2. Morale

3. SAVE

4. Ward + Morale

...

need I continue?

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