[newbie]Miss the colonies, lose the game?

It is and it isn't. You can certainly make do with your homeworld and the secondary on smaller maps and/or with rare enough planets that there isn't a colony rush. If you turn up the planet rarity setting, and the habitable planet rarity setting, you'll have lots more to colonize, and so getting a larger piece of the pie becomes more important.

But if you're speaking of 2 worlds to 4 or 5, I wouldn't be worried. Just make a habit of invading early when the AI outcolonizes you.

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You can even trade a bunch of Techs for some key far away AI planets that may prove useful later.

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Also, beating the AI to key resources and asteroids also allows you to get up your war economy faster - for taking colonies from the AI. Colonies have significant start-up time and costs. Resources and asteroids set up significantly faster.

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Quoting Roxlimn,

reply 3

Also, beating the AI to key resources and asteroids also allows you to get up your war economy faster - for taking colonies from the AI. Colonies have significant start-up time and costs. Resources and asteroids set up significantly faster.

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5 turns + 10 turns + 20 turns + 20 turns. Yeah. Okay then. The first level, sure. The second level, maybe. The third level...how do you not have a colony up and running in 35 turns? How do you have an asteroid mine producing 20mp maximum and closer to 15mp likely being worth more than a colony that you've had for 35 turns?

Resources...maybe. You can certainly max out a resource in 35 turns-or even 15, if you can get there fast enough. But they do take a decent amount of constructors, especially if you want to put token weapons/defenses on them.

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We're talking start of the game here, Sole Soul. Presumably, it's a bunch of asteroids quantified against a planet. Even if you did have a colony up and running in 35 turns, the startup costs would still not have been made up by then, and the net production add-on to your economy would entail additional maintenance.

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Quoting Roxlimn,

reply 5

We're talking start of the game here, Sole Soul. Presumably, it's a bunch of asteroids quantified against a planet. Even if you did have a colony up and running in 35 turns, the startup costs would still not have been made up by then, and the net production add-on to your economy would entail additional maintenance.

I make my initial investment back in under 10 turns. It was still under 15 when I didn't play Breeder.

"A bunch" of asteroids = multiple miners = I could have had multiple colonies (assuming any exist on the map).

I'll take the colonies, thanks.

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I'm very interested in that. I have trouble turning my economy around at the start of the game. What's the cost outlay for a colony ship vis a vis an asteoroid field, and how do you make your investment back "in under 10 turns" assuming you spend about 3 or 4 of those turns getting your colony ship to the planet in question, plus one more turn for the ship-ship conversion?

I'm pretty sure the advantage of turning your miner into a colony ship for colonizing planets is an intermediate to long term gain. I'd be very interested to know how you're recouping the cost and maintenance of a colony within 5 turns of its founding.

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A much more rapid colony ship will always be more efficient than any second Miner built, IMHO.

Reasoning behind accessible distances aside, an optimal colony rush would slot your economy beyond the PQs they provide unless AIs snatches it all off your hands.

Better me than them.

That miner is precious for at least 3 asteroids worth of mps and of a single FACTORY unbuilt while providing social points that allow a Market center or two & other PIs (such as the Econo Capital, btw) to be on that Homeworld faster.

At least, that's how i perceive the Mining edge. May seem useless to some, but productivity ratio matters.

Recoupe? Republic & Morale.

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Quoting Roxlimn,

reply 7

I'm very interested in that. I have trouble turning my economy around at the start of the game. What's the cost outlay for a colony ship vis a vis an asteoroid field, and how do you make your investment back "in under 10 turns" assuming you spend about 3 or 4 of those turns getting your colony ship to the planet in question, plus one more turn for the ship-ship conversion?

I'm pretty sure the advantage of turning your miner into a colony ship for colonizing planets is an intermediate to long term gain. I'd be very interested to know how you're recouping the cost and maintenance of a colony within 5 turns of its founding.

I had a longer analysis of my process here, but I removed it, as I neglected to consider colony maintenance as well. I can make back the cost of the ship fairly easily, but the maintenance just murders my recoup time, as it's 10bc (TA) or 12bc (DA) a turn, which is quite a hole to climb out of. I therefore concede the point on short term usefulness (with regards to initial cost, maintenance, and time to recoup), but maintain that long term a colony is far superior. Additionally, 35 turns is still completely doable.

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I actually don't turn my miner into a colony ship more and more lately. Particularly as Thalans/with the Thalan tree, it's invaluable, as I mentioned in the other thread, and I've been playing with that tree lately.

I suppose it's worth noting that a miner only has to be built once, while a colony ship has to be built again and again. Still, the miner then has to waste time moving at speed 1 off of the asteroid, and move to its new destination, which is particularly important when it's halfway across the galaxy.

The simple answer is that a colony is worth more to me because I can build a ship on that colony as well as on the worlds I already have. Since I'm addicted to Breeder, I can land 250M colonists on a planet, set up a shipyard, build a 75bc colony ship (colony module on tiny hull, 25% miniaturization required) or a 90bc colony ship (colony module on small hull, no miniaturization required, interstellar construction required in TA) and have enough pop to fill it by the time it builds 3-4 turns later. Since I generally take +1 or +2 speed and rush to Impulse drive for another +1, I have 1+1+2=4 speed tiny/small ships in DA or 2+1+2=5 speed tiny/small ships in TA.

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I don't consider Impulse Drive early-tech, though. By the time that arrives, most of my planets should well under way to being self-sufficient, or at least self-justifying.

The difference between our conclusions is that I don't only consider Super Breeder, which shortens the turnaround time for planet viability considerably, and I also don't assume Abundant Anomalies, which can allow you to deficit spend much longer with BC pickups.

Let's posit, for isntance, that you're playing as the Drath, specifically for the purpose of the pop growth hit. Doesn't make much sense to play a pop hit Civ, and then make it up with pop growth bonuses, right? You want that play experience.

As the Drath, your planet turnaround is much, much slower. You gotta pick the best planet clumps that all share upgrade paths. Aside from that, you're more incentivized to seek out Resources and Asteroids, which are not affected by pop growth hits.

Of course, in the long term, a colony is a much more valuable asset, which is why the point of getting Asteroids early is specifically to leverage the advantage into getting more colonies. I highly value a location with a decent planet and as asteroid field, for instance. If I acquire the planet and develop the asteroid field with the native miner I have (replace the native miner with another), I could have an extra +13 prod on that planet within 17 turns of its founding, assuming the miner and colony went at the same time- and that's maintenance-free!

Particularly in the case of a clump of low PQ planets, a sizable asteroid field in the system (and a miner to work it) are invaluable at getting them up to speed i infrastructure ASAP, whether those be factories or Merchant Trade Complexes. That is, of course, because you can shift around that production from planet to planet, allowing point production boosts without spending from your treasury.

Best of all, it all costs nothing to build and maintain, and you only spend for the miner 1/asteroid field (I tend to build miners where appropriate), which is why I don't believe that you only spend for it once, and why I don't have miners trundling halfway across the galaxy.

For Breeder games, the colony ships is worth that much more, and I don't doubt that it can be exccedingly advantageous just to have everything have colony modules.

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Of course, in the long term, a colony is a much more valuable asset, which is why the point of getting Asteroids early is specifically to leverage the advantage into getting more colonies.

But with my playstyle, another colony gets me another colony faster than almost any amount of asteroids can.

which is why I don't believe that you only spend for it once

True-you spend for it for as many miners as you make. Which is practically always less than colony ships, which was my only point.

For Breeder games, the colony ships is worth that much more, and I don't doubt that it can be exccedingly advantageous just to have everything have colony modules.

It's also killer as Hive, which is what I played beforehand. This is particularly devastating combined with the fact that the Thalans in DA, when choosing maximum economic bonuses from customization points and political party, and due to having +25% inherent (which they unfortunately lost for TA), make enough off of a 250M pop colony at a decent tax rate (can't remember what, but probably too high to get the doubled pop growth bonus) to pay for the maintenance. At least, that's how I remember it...I'll give it a look again. I do remember DA taxation giving a bit more than TA taxation.

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