so well put.

Yea patkhoo, I used too the example of starcraft for the solo campaign. People are scared of a 16 hour tutorials? Wtf they are ralking about? No need a tutorial we already have one. But some missions with backgroud story could be nice. Like starcraft has many missions and between them you have some text that describe a progressive story linked with your missions. And ppl are scared that it could be too easy too. But I'm sure that you can put the first missions kinda easy but at the end, missions could be good challenge.

Example of missions: have a planet with like many metal/crystal asteroid and much population and many tactical/logistic slots. You have to defend it for 30 min and the AI keep sending wave of attack and the last 5 min there is like 10 capital ship. Or on another missions, you have to destroy a high lvl capital ship, or destroy all the trade port of your enemy. Anyway, there is much possibility, but ofc, all that need a background.

Oo insulting an extreame (made up)anology means im insulting you, hmm you should have a bit thougher skin imo.

it is simply an illustration nothing personal, if you took it that way, that's you problem(well i geuss i could have put it better), but trust me it was not meant as an insult. remember internet talk is often a bit more harsh than most ppl use in RL.

and anyway no English is not my 1'st language, it's my 3'rd( btw you're calling me on spelling, im calling you on thinking things throu, why am i the one that's insulting?. Don't throw bricks when you live in a glasshouse and all that, kinda makes you look like a tard eh

A very good point.

Well, yes, but that example would be just like the StarCraft mission - so it is not surprising, does not break new ground. Everyone knows Zerg Rush now, but when it first came out, it was a new thing. Sins should break new ground, not copy well known things. Otherwise, adding a campaign just for story lines and to make the game "complete" is IMHO not good enough a reason.

Like I said, it would be nice to have, not a must. Certainly not a must if it is just a campaign for campaign's sake. It has to break new ground. Here are some examples of "OK" missions - they are just challenging, not necessarily break new ground/concepts.

Mission 1: You have a small fleet - no planets. Objective - navigate through enemy space with all sorts of ships/etc to destination and live. Maybe given time limit.

Mission 2: Capture a particular planet, but the planet has fixed defenses that are in Z-axis and you must use Z-axis manuevours to win.

Mission 3: Race against AI to find an artifact on some planet, but Pirates attack all planets every 5 minutes - and the Pirate attack is always 95% successful in destroying all planets (you lose all your planets every 5 minutes).

Mission 4: Capture (destory all others and surround with at least three of your own ships) a particular enemy ship - a lowly, poor frig with no upgrades/etc (who WILL engage in battle). Trouble is, you don't know which one it is (not marked), and only scouts can identify it  - ie. if your scout dies in the middle of the battle, you can't see it anymore, and you could mistakenly kill the ship and lose the mission..

What, galactic domination not enough for you?

 There's plenty of targets already furnished, check out the achievement screen. Or of course you can elect to win by influence, military or even (to an extent anyway) economically. I don't think developer furnished targets work so well in these situations; it's impossible to predict the situation the player will be in.

Maybe some kind of small objectives which can give bonuses once achieved would work better? A bit like the missions offered by AI players. Say accumulate X credits within Y minutes and a small party of mercenary frigates will join your fleet, or eliminate pirates from system Z and you'll get a 15% bonus on trade income for the next 10 minutes. Basically small random events which the player may or may not elect to take advantage of.

The problem with a campaign is you only get that once. With Sins, you can get hundreds of similar situations brought about from the actions of yourself or other players. I've watched the entire TEC armada wiped out in a massive three way battle trying to defend a chokepoint to the rest of their empire, I've watched the Advent claw themselves back from near annihilation one rock at a time. Massive invasions by Vasari fleets which had lay hidden in an unexplored system until they decided the time was right to storm the galaxy with unstoppable force. None of this was scripted, nor did it need to be. A good writer might be able to deliver the same with scripting, but not to the consistent quantity free play already provides.

Mind you, I generally ignore the campaigns in most RTS's in favour of skirmish anyway. Still haven't even touched the AOEIII campaign, and I abandoned the campaign mode of Dawn of War around three missions in. Never liked Starcraft either though, so what do I know

Again, if you read my post carefully, I was not saying that the way Sins is now, there is not enough targets or interesting stories to tell. SimCity has no campaign either, and they didn't do one for SimCity, SimCity 2, 3 or 4! Never needed one, and I for one love it (I've got all of them by the way..). Heck, SimCity doesn't even have MP!

All I said was, it would be nice (not a do it or else) if Sins had some special (and memorable) missions (ala campaign mode?) like what StarCraft did.

Come on, let's all agree - StarCraft's SP mode is really no where near as fantastic as Sins. And if SOASE had some campaign stuff like StarCraft, then well, by jove, I think they would have figured out a way to make perfection even better.

Um.. yes.. your mission is to report bugs to the developers.

They have not announced the content of the third expansion pack yet, maybe it will be a story mode. If this is their plan, I'm happy to see them wait and get a good story together than the typical strategy game scenario of "Ok you don't have access to these 5 very useful technologies and you can't build these seven very useful units. The enemy can and will attack your base in 5 minutes using them (cue on-screen countdown)." I think the devs left out a story mode because they did not want to waste valuable time. The game is pretty solid in my opinion, and they are adding Entrenchment to strengthen defense and the next expansion to strengthen the diplomatic and political sides of the game. Will the third expansion be a story mode? Who knows. At this point I'd be happy to see one because if they have been working through it, it is probably pretty solid by now. In the meantime, enjoy the game without having to hold a planet for 3 minutes against 6 waves of enemies that spawn randomly or win a game without being able to use cruisers.

I make up my own story while I play.  Rename your planets and cap ships and enjoy yourself.   I mean what were those starcraft missions?  defeat base?  destroy superweapon?   Escort "X" unit to (X,Y) coordinates?  I think every aspect of a starcraft mission is contained within a single sins game. 

Hmmmm...... this is a very hard one, i too agree i would like to see a campaign. Star Trek, Star Wars, StarCraft and of course HomeWorld had them. But Sins?  I dont know. Lots of ppl here get flame throwers out for those who say they want one, with reasons abounding for not having it. But to be honest, imo, it gets rather repetitious with just the maps. I start with a planet, build up, launch a fleet, win? lose a few battles? Make it into mid-game, is it getting too easy now? Or too hard? The ai starts bashing, or caves in. Do i make it to end game? What is left there, mopping up? Throwing everything i got but its not enough and i am outgunned and dont have time to re-build? Win or lose the game.

But will a campaign fix this?

What about an editor?

I seriously dont know.

HomeWorld was fantastic, but it kicked my bleep.

Star Trek was fun, but like someone said, once you beat the scenario that was it, you knew the story and that was it. End of story end of game and playing through the second time was ... well... not fun anymore.

Star Wars, on the other hand has new content, the wookie rebellion, the federation invasion, battles in space, battles on bases or planets with walk around characters, new missions every year with an expansion. SW is close to having it all. But the monthly fee? Well, i suppose if they are doing all that a monthly fee is the way to pay for it.

Starcraft was interesting, campaign and strategy, missions and goals, but yes they were hard coded. I had to get past something to get to the next mission/level. Sometimes that was a grind too. Or lets play this level for the thirtieth time and see if i can come up with something i havent for the last 29 so i can win and get past it. SC also kicked me, i got so far, and then wasnt figuring it out. That killed the game for me as i just gave up and went to look for another game.

So sometimes stories kill, because they are only one story and thats it. Sometimes they kill because they are too difficult. I'm a noob, so im not as skilled nor as fast as many and sometimes in some games that is the death look.

As for Sins...?

I dont know.

I am getting bored with starting over and over. And winning and losing dont seem to matter one way or another. Win, just call up a new map. Lose, just call up a new map. Play two ai, win. Play two hard ai and lose. Call up a new map. I start fresh each time. There is no "continuity". I dont "carry" crews, or ships, or resources or planets from one game to the next. Is it chess? Well, sorta. Except chess boils down to mathematical probabilities. Playing chess with a friend might be a way to have fun, to relax, to stretch the mind, to see some interesting moves. But chess is for friends or novices or hard core fans. Sins is... well, im not playing a friend over an afternoon cup of coffee and talking tactics while we play. There is me and the ai, and its either too easy or too hard, and winds up in the same place regardless of which.

Hmmm....  I hope i dont sound critical, i am only trying to set down what i think and not play the "i gotta have a campaign" or "I hate campaigns" card. What is it that will make the game more enjoyable to play? To come back and play again?

Mods are nice, but even then, its only dressing. 7DS came close with some of the derelict graveyards and capturable ships, wormholes that literally eat your ships, haha. Big huge planets that ate my framerate til i had to quit. But even then, it was only a few nuances and then it was repetition again. I make my own little mods. And same thing. Make it easy, make it hard, make it different as i can with file tweaks. But in the end even though the mods are wonderful dressing, they arent the cup of tea that makes me want to come back.

Maybe mp. But as a noob and with only usually an hour to play a day, ppl get way annoyed because im not skilled enough, or i have to leave, which of course leaves all my team mates in the lurch. So that is not good, either for them to enjoy the game, or as motivation to continue that kind of playing for me.

Entrenchment changes the landscape, and that does what Wookies did for SW, which is throw something new and interesting and game changing up in front of the player. That i like, alot. And maybe that is the key, maybe. To continue to put out mini-expansions every two-three months? If they can keep up the sales to pay for it, and if they want to continue to develope it. Some developers are in the game for the short run, make a product, sell it, go on to something else. Others like Blizzard seem to be in it for the long run. They develope and continue to develope years afterward.

Going online? By that i mean rts-4x-mmo pay a monthly fee and get locked in, but with a guarantee of new content as things go along. Maybe that could be the "story" each expansion becomes a "chapter" in the long arc that leads players/gamers in this direction, or that,  depending on their choices? Did i join the dark armada and sell my soul to the vasari as a self-serving human entrepreneur? Or did i join the advent and give up my humanity for a collective will?

This is difficult, and i am sorry for talking so long. I am just trying to figure this out. It would be nice to have "Something" that makes the game new and more interesting everytime we come back to play, i just dont know what that is.

But it needs something.

Sins is great, i am just getting tired of the repetition. Sorry, im not joining the bashers here, just saying i like the game, but am getting tired of the sameness, that is all.

Anyway, thats my opinion and thoughts,

-Teal

you pretty much summed it up.(im one of the bashers in this thread^^)and thouches on the main issue. the cost of making a worthwhile story that is not just a 15hour tutorial

I came up with this in another thred but it may be *a* solution.

as i see it, the main problem is as you state - repeting maps over and over, when you've won once you will never loose again on that map( if you beat a campain once, same story)

first of -- afaik it seems the learning curve is a bit to steep in Sins. So my suggestion deals with that aswell

1. Add a level more, have 5 settings instead of 4 will make it easier to climb the ladder

begginer (AI get's 50%  income)

easy (AI gets 75%)

normal AI gets 100%)

hard (AI gets 125% -- down from 150)

unfair (AI gets 150% -down from i think 200)

2. make the Unfair setting get a further 5/10% inncome boost each time you beat it(or loose a bit if you loose). This will give a new goal in SP( as far as i can tell this is what ppl really want- a goal) how hardcore can you get the AI before you loose.

This would be even better if it rememberd on a map basis( even more so if it also remembers settings) So on map X you play vs an 290% AI(ouch) and on map y you are only up to a 155% AI

thoughts?