Which civilizations need my attention the most?

This is kind of general, but has overbuilding (or rather, the lack thereof) been looked at yet? Sorry if this has been addressed (I haven't had a lot of time lately to play with the betas), but as long as it's been in the game, to my knowledge it hasn't been, and a fair share of us have mentioned it.

This would in particular help the Thalans, as they would no longer leave worlds full of embassies, although they might still start out with them.

I know there was something else I wanted to see, but it's 5am and I should be asleep, as I have to be awake at 10, so (understandably?) I'm having difficulty remembering it.

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In general the AIs need to use the fleet modules more efficently. And I think that is going to be rather complicated.

The humanoid races (Humans, Altarians, Krynn, Torians) and most of the evil guys are doing pretty well already.

But the Thalans need to change. They use what they have, but that's not much. They probably need a fundamental change of stragtegy.

The Arceans always end up with the slowest ships in my games. They need to learn to build the navigation centers. And on the right planets!

The Korx seem to be unable to make use of their vast economic possibilities.

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I play on tough.

I concur with TheLaywer on the total emptiness of the Thalan AI. They tend to get a good colony rush, and then build their core worlds with embassies, and that's the way they stay. I've taken to trying to contact them early and tech trading as many improvement techs as I can spare to make them build relatively balanced worlds - and then it's only their outer rim that gets the new improvements, Thala gets all the Thalan specific wonders and embassies!

They also share a problem with other expansionists (the Krynn, Terrans, etc) that their outer worlds remain empty save a starport for a very long time. I imagine this is built in to avoid those expansionist from having the economy crunch, but it leaves their worlds very easy to invade (when they can't produce on-planet defense very fast, and all their military is at their core).

The Korx, Altarians, and Arceans haven't gotten off the ground in any of the games I've used them in, nor have the Drath but I haven't used them much.

I like the AI's new resistance to trading important techs.

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Maybe allow the Thalan AI to upgrade their embasses to low level other buildings?

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As a TA-Thalan lover, I would like to see them replace the embassies with other useful buildings as soon as they are available. If at all possible, work on placing an extremely high-priority for them to get to their factory building techs when it comes down to research. I will be like the "litter commercial Native American" when the pink blob of doom no longer exists...but I will be happier to know they have their priorities straight.

Also on the Thalan front, due to them lacking a farm tech, I think it may be prudent for them to worry about planetary defense more. This may mean them making sure a Planetary Defense building is placed on every single planet to help with their relatively low population issue with war.

I don't know if there is a way to get the Dregin's (or any other Super Dominator custom race) rethink going to war for a price due to economic stability. My last game I was able to turn the galactic bully into a stale potato chip by getting them to go to war for techs (instead of cash) and then the corvettes bankrupted them WAY beyond the point of return until those ships were gone.

Probably 1/2 a year went by with me keeping them strangling themselves with no planetary production and only relying on the corvettes for defense/offense. The people who I sicked them on crushed them since they had the ability to make transports and more ships.

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Mistralok1

Join Date 05/2006

+22

I would have to agree that the Thalans should be given first priority. Every game with them is the same. Thalans build nothing but embassies/Influence p@sses off their neighbor/Thalans get crushed. The Thalans should NEVER build an embassy, unless they are defending against another civ's influence. They shouldn't be using up their resourses on these things, but should instead be desperately researching up the tech tree until they get something that they can actually use.

I think that the easiest way to do this is to remove embassies from their tech tree altogether. You could bump up their loyalty by a fair amount to offset this loss.

I can't say what else may need attention with them. There may be other weaknesses in their AI, but if they exist, they are hidden away behind the 'pink blob'.

I know that you are asking about changes to the AI, but if I might veer *slightly* off for a moment and make a suggestion from a player's point of view. The Thalans are always the weakest race for a looong time. Give them something to keep the other races off their back. First, I would suggest lowering their diplomatic penalty to 10%. I can see other races being 'put off' by talking bugs, but 30% is too much. Next, they need some sort of starting military rating. I'm not suggesting that you give them warships- this would be too much of an advantage, but they at least need something that gives them the *appearance* of having a military. Ideally, it would be a 'one per race' tech that they would research and then build that would give a boost to their military rating. I don't know how much work you are willing at this point to put into this, but if you have a spare graphic lying around, it might not be too time consuming. The easiest thing of all, I suppose, is for you to code it in on your side, and we can just assume that they brought it with them.

What Loupdinour said about the Drengin is absolutely correct. This is a real exploit. I think that this is one of the reasons that they flounder in TA. The Drengin are evil, they're not stupid. Even that lunatic hitler knew that he couldn't win a two-front war. The Drengin shouldn't be able to be bribed into more than one war at a time, and they shouldn't be able to be bribed *at all* if they are already at war.

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What Loupdinour said about the Drengin is absolutely correct. This is a real exploit. I think that this is one of the reasons that they flounder in TA. The Drengin are evil, they're not stupid. Even that lunatic Hitler knew that he couldn't win a two-front war. The Drengin shouldn't be able to be bribed into more than one war at a time, and they shouldn't be able to be bribed *at all* if they are already at war.

I wouldn't go that far... If they have the economy to withstand another hit of corvettes showing up, then they should pursue the war.

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I'm curious to discuss the Thalans by taking a step back and asking Frogboy (and other developers)...

What do you expect of the Thalans? How would you anticipate an intelligent playing of the Thalans? They have a few 1-hit wonders, then any other planetary improvements are really expensive to start building.

Would you expect that they don't expand initially, but rather spend the time building a strong core while they research important econ, industry, and research buildings?
Would you expect that they expand with empty planets, essentially using them as outposts to try and "find" the Humans so they can be stopped, meanwhile researching weapon techs?

How do you propose that they get a military going in a reasonable period of time?
How do you propose that they keep up with the other civilization's expansion?

What tools do they have to do this?

=-=-=

Now to address the question for Thalans.

1) It seems that the "from the future" half has been considered much more strongly than the "bugs" half. Some ideas:
* How about halving their population-related morale penalty?
* How about tripling the strength of their regular troops, to account for their exo-skeletons?

2) It seems that you've only considered negatives of coming-from-the-future (small starting population, bad with "current" money, needs to "adopt" their technology to modern power, etc). What about the positives of coming-from-the-future? Some ideas:
* Scanner boost, including increased max range
* Wormhole technology (or some sort of speed boost)
* Foreknowledge of universal events
* Free universal adapter
* Start with generic expensive-and-working-poorly buildings. Then have a single "adaption" technology line that improves the buildings, and provides the break-off for all other technologies. After the 2nd level of adaption, they can start developing ships. After the 3rd level of adaption, they can start developing weapons & defenses. After the 4th level of adaption, they can start developing space stations. After the 5th level of adaption, they can get Thalan-specific weapons & defenses.

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Some other possible bug-related modifications:
* As their "political party" they have a hive, with associated bonuses and penalties.
* Some technologies that they "take" (trade, steal, capture) are not immediately available, they show up in the tech tree but must be re-researched to be applicable to their bug bodies and psychie.

I think you could do most of this based purely on tech tree. Maybe not the re-research, wormhole, and having one tech modify the properties of another tech, although that could be fixed by simply creating new buildings instead of modifying existing ones.

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Some other possible bug-related modifications:
* As their "political party" they have a hive, with associated bonuses and penalties.
* Some technologies that they "take" (trade, steal, capture) are not immediately available, they show up in the tech tree but must be re-researched to be applicable to their bug bodies and psychie.

I think you could do most of this based purely on tech tree. Maybe not the re-research, wormhole, and having one tech modify the properties of another tech, although that could be fixed by simply creating new buildings instead of modifying existing ones.

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Could you please take a look at the "Racial Balance as of Beta 6A" thread on the beta reports board? There is a lot of feedback I think would be relevant there. Thank you for considering our input! I'm sure I'm not the only one who truly appreciates it!

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I don't agree that the Thalans should never use embassies, but it would be better if other strategies were more easily balanced with the pink blob of doom. As it is when I play with the Thalans they seem to be forced to use either laboratories or factories, which is more awkward than anything else. Making one or two super-planets on small maps is fun, but I don't like it that an entire civilization is so inflexible. Although it is probably too late to adjust for these changes, any balance that would include lowered research times for later laboratory or factory technologies. As for the embassies, you could just take out embassies for the Thalans. There would still be Cultural Exchange Centers in two technologies I think and the Thalans can always use extra diplomacy in the early game so that rushing those technologies would be no great loss. I enjoy the Thalans as a race because they play so differently from any other, and it is a bit annoying to have their strategies be either all ambassies(which I have tried and found interesting but would not want to use every time) or a restrictive infrastructure.

The races that probably could use help the most right now are those just below average races like the Arceans and Korx. It is rare to see these races be a real Galactic power, and whenever I see the Korx I start planning with the assumption that they will be one of the first races to be picked apart. This assumption has yet to fail in a number of matches, primarily small-abundant. The Arceans are better than the Korx for this, but whereas the Korx do something different from the other races(Evil diplomatic/ economic, trade in general as a powerful weapon) the Arceans are just dull to play. I have tried them, but just never enjoy them as much as other races. If I want to play with a militaristic strategy then the Korath, Drengin, Yor, or Torians are better options. For a more balanced strategy the Terrans, Iconians, or Korx are more interesting options (The Korx are fine with a human player, it is only really with an A.I. controller that the expansionist fodder criticism really applies).

Also, I am not sure if this problem has been fixed already, have not noticed it recently anyway, but when the Kryyn or Terrans refuse to build any ships at all the entire game. It is such a waste of a usually fairly powerful civilization when that happens. Overall, though, the A.I. seems to be much better so far than DA.

Edit: The solution to these issues does not have to be making the weaker civilizations stronger, any sort of subtle check to the early strength of the Torians or Yor or such would be acceptable, as you seem to be looking for smaller changes now.

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Though it's not quite what you're asking, a LOT of the super abilities need to be looked at again. The Thalans is now downright useless as they barely build factories (with the strategy I find most effective, industrial buildings aren't constructed at ALL until I've developed the research capacity to blitz to L3 from the get go and avoid the maintainence costs). The Iconians have never had a strong special ability (they only get basic colonization techs for two types... the Korath get the ADVANCED version of one of those techs, AND the spore ships! There is something seriously, seriously off there!)

As for AI improvements that you might want to look at, you might want to create some races that focus their economy more aggressively. Whenever I play, I only have three economy settings: 100% military for focused building of ships, 1% military and 100% social for building infrastructure, and 100% research. No other races do that... they always adjust in gradients, which means that they get everything slower instead of one thing faster and the rest later (which is more optimal). This is something that the Thalan REALLY benefit from, since they often need to blitz their way through several techs in order to see a benefit or reduce maintainence costs to something manageable.

I'd also look into giving the AI access to more varied fleet building strategies, instead of the generic fighter/heavy fighter/frigate setup they currently make use of. There's a lot of possibilities in TA when considering even just the hull augumentation alone! For instance, you could create entirely new ship classes along the vein of medium fighter/corvette/cruiser that would be the HP augumented versions of the tiny, small, and medium hulls respectively. Another strategy is to build makeshift, early game battleships out of cargo hulls with tons of hull boosters. They're under armed, and very expensive, but there's no denying that the suckers pack a punch and last quite a bit longer. Is it an efficient strategy? Probably not. But there's something to be said for mixing it up and using an outlandish tactic once in a while.

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Frogboy,
Are you working on just the AI of the races, or doing any work on the tech trees?

I have been building a spreadsheet of the various racial tech trees and came across one thing that is standing out for me. Compared to the other races, the Thalans actually have a reason for and effective difference in chosing an alignment. Even above the standard alignment specific techs that were present in DL and DA, the Thalans have another 4 or 5 techs for each potential alignment. The Altarians have an extra 7 or so if you choose a Good alignment and nobody else has much of anything at all.

I know it is probably too late for any major changes before the release, but it seems to me that for the most part we are missing out on a chance to make choosing an alignment a real and significant choice in the game.

Jarod Silverstar

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I agree, most of the races seem heavily "forced" to take a certain alignment path, because its the only thing that makes sense for them. I always liked the idea of evil altarians in pre-TA, but now there is no positive things about that at all.

As for the AI, I feel like the AI declares war when it decides to invade someone rather than when it is ready for it. I'd like to have a more vicious AI that doesn't warn you 20 turns before the first invasion ship arrives, it should declare war when entering your territory if good, and when invading the first planet when evil.
Apparently it can detect that you building up forces near them, but they never do anything like that themselves.

I also find it strange that AI Korath perform so poorly when you take into consideration that they are so powerful (their super-ability is so powerful that I feel like I'm cheating if I use it myself).

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I'm going through all the civs with AI updates and such but are there any civilizations in particular you would like me to take a look at in depth and if so, what changes would you guys like to see?
Also, I want to reassure you all that just because Twilight of the Arnor gets released doesn't mean we won't be doing updates. I LOVE working on the AI and doing updates. I'd do it for free. Twilight of the Arnor is simply the last thing we currently plan to charge for. It doesn't mean it's the last time we're updating.

I still feel that the Altarians tech tree needs love, but at any rate, in my current game, their military sucks. I understand that they're supposed to be peaceful and all, but even the damn Torians have ships with guns on them. The Altarians don't seem to be interested in building anything with offensive capacity. They're just making HUNDREDS of troop transports, leaving their worlds completely barren of populace.

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Full disclaimer that I have not taken part in the TA beta, so I do not know if this is still the case.

I rarely leave a ship in orbit around a planet. I much prefer to construct a military starbase around a group of planets and designate a squadron of fighters to defend this area of space. (Its a force multiplier and cheaper on upkeep costs)

I mention this because I've noticed the Yor AI has a problem with how I play. Maybe its intentional that they don't care about their troops - they're probably made from old soup cans - but the Yor went to the Zap Brannigan school of conquest.

They just send wave after wave of unescorted troop transports at my 'undefended' colonies. Then they either spot the approaching fighters and go home, are destroyed or occasionally one will get through and be butchered by the population 10-20 times greater in number.

Other races typically attempt to escort their transports and only occasionally go for the lone transport but the Yor are utterly obessed with attacking solely with single troop transports in what must appear to the AI as a juicy target rich enviroment.

I mention this because even when through a series of accidental fortunes the Yor are successful with this tactic my entire defensive infrastructure remains intact and its almost trivial to retake expensively won planets. This makes victories Pyrrhic and just as damaging to the economy as losses.

In and of itself I don't have a problem with the AI attempting this tactic because concievably it could work, but the AI does not have the tools to make intelligent decisions on how to go about it. It feels a bit silly to bring the Yor Collective to its knees as it burns through population and production in a futile massacre.

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I mention this because I've noticed the Yor AI has a problem with how I play. Maybe its intentional that they don't care about their troops - they're probably made from old soup cans - but the Yor went to the Zap Brannigan school of conquest.

Oh man.

Points++ for that.

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Thanks!

I can just see them hovering above the planetary capital only to have the cargo bay doors open and 'Surprise!' boom out over the loudspeaker.

Then theres just severed mechanical limbs clutching death rays dinting hover limos and smashing up shop fronts all over the CBD.

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Frogboy, I play on the 'Challenging' setting, and I've noticed that certain AI's just always do better.

Usually the influence-based AI's do far better than any other. I've noticed that in every game, the Korx, Iconians, and Arceans are almost completely inept. They need SERIOUS help. I've never seen them do anything except whine and get conquered.

The Drath do 'okay', and the Drengin and Korath do pretty good (but the Korath don't abuse their super ability as much as they should, and their weapon techs make them able to leapfrog anyone else ridiculously easy),

On the other hand, I've never seen the Krynn, Thalans, or the Torians do anything except dominate most of the galaxy.

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I've transitioned to Painful from Tough to set the background of my AI experience.

Generally speaking I find starting locations and available planets are the biggest factor in the success of an AI empire. Uranium outlined the Krynn, Thalans and Torians as being highly successful but I think that has more to do with the fact that these empires have a voracious appetite for expansion.

All races are interested in expanding but I think these three are tweaked to expand harder than most. When backed into a corner or when competition for real estate is fierce the heavily expansive races really shine. When economy is the only limiting factor on rate of expansion less expansive races do really well.

I've seen some terribly powerful Arceans, Iconians, Altarians, Korx etc because they emerged in a galatic geography that suited their racial strategy. This comes back to what I was saying about the Yors troop transport strategy - its potentially very successful but the AI doesnt seem to have the diagnostic tools to identify when to employ it.

I have too much lingering fear of the First Striking Arcean Armada that went through an equally powerful Drengin Empire like it was wet tissue paper to agree with anyone saying the Arceans are inept (and I was allied with them and shouldn't be afraid... though maybe afraid of them finding out how much provocation I subjected the Drengin to causing them to declare war on me and thus dragging the Arceans into a very bloody war... shhhh)

I will agree however that their strategy, whatever it is, does not work when the expansive empires get all the juicy real estate and put hotels on them. But perhaps thats a limitation of the game and what the AI can deal with.

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