AI cheating on first turn (buys more than one social improvement per planet) ?

Evil, I use all the advance features, sure it takes time to play a game, but I am in NO hurry to complete each game. I get to drink my coffee and contemplate my next move, kinda like chess

As I said, you are very vocal about your problems with the game, and all your crashes. Again, new machine, new problems, hardware incompatibilities, one bad transistor, and crash. I have read everything you have tried, yet you continue to blame the programmers of the game, when it just might be your bios, or a driver conflict, very common with newer equipment, high end game machines that are stressing the limits of stability.

A brief reprise from the crashes proves that it is your machine, and something you have installed on your machine, or that someone else has installed on your machine.

You have a very bad attitude, thinking everyone owes you something....

I have no wife,

and I will talk down to a cry baby any time I want to

You like to toss dirt and shit but sure don't like to look in the mirror when it is tossed back at you.

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A brief reprise from the crashes proves that it is your machine

I can see how you would have misinterpreted this one so I will clarify. My brief reprises come from the fact that sometimes I can only play a few turns and when doing so I have never had a CTD. Other times, I can play for a few hours and still be fine. Then there are those times right in the middle, not the 'time frame' of minutes or hours but just those times where the CTD rears it's ugly head for no apparent rhyme or reason, period.

yet you continue to blame the programmers of the game

Show me where I have blamed the devs for any of this during the last, oh I don't know, two to three months. Come on, you said you like the slow 'chess' pace so I dare you to find a thread where I am blatantly blaming the devs. I doubt you will. Dig up some old stuff and of course you will find me trashing on the devs... I was also 'new' to this site/game and still a little inexperienced with the inner workings of a PC. In time however, I have learned that it isn't always the devs fault. I am on the devs to find the problem. Is this wrong? I already said that I went through all of the 'traditional' channels when turning in debugs so I don't see where you think that I am on the devs for "making a shitty game" as you would paint me as saying.
Besides that, I would think that my 'devotion' to this site and this game show that I am legit in what I am trying to have done, no trolling, no flaming, but seriously trying to resolve my, and others, issues by asking the devs for help and shouting out... you know, the old 'squeaky wheel' gets the oil thing.

You have a very bad attitude, thinking everyone owes you something

That one was good. Someone owes me something? Really? I liked that one sooooo much that I would actually invite anyone reading this to show me where I have thought this. Please show me the error of my ways in thinking someone somehow owes me something as I would relish eating some humble pie as it does the soul good. Oh, and by me asking to please fix some game bugs in this game that WASN'T FREE, am I asking too much? I didn't think so but I'll have to remember that the next time a customer thinks they can stroll into the dealership and demand that we fix their car that they only have 100 miles on and just spent 30K on for free, as in under warranty... same concept you are throwing in my face even if they are apples and oranges.

I have no wife

I didn't want to be 'mean' but... I wonder why you don't.

You like to toss dirt and shit but sure don't like to look in the mirror when it is tossed back at you

I'm not sure how to respond to this one. First, I don't ever remember talking to you on this forum with regards to anything, nor have I ever said one flaming word to you. YOU decided you were feeling froggy and wanted to jump on board, not me. You ignorantly tagged me for a comment I made as something I am not and I am responding in kind. I don't want a flame war with you and I actually did and still do feel somewhat 'bad' for even wasting my time with you as you are a lonely old man who probably wouldn't hurt a fly... but again, don't paint me to be something I am not.

and I will talk down to a cry baby any time I want to

Ahhh, and finally, my favorite. A cry baby huh? What did I cry about today? What have I posted in all caps TO SIGNIFY THAT I AM SCREAMING AND CRYING ABOUT SOMETHING? Anything? You got something on me? Oh, because I lent my two cents to this thread by saying yes, fix the issues and forego the graphics tweaks for now I guess I was crying up a storm, huh? Brad's post did seem more like a question to me than anything else. I thought he was laying it out there that he will listen to what 'we' want for the next update or two and it's our choice. I guess I should have just shut up and not 'voted' for what I wanted after the CEO asked me?

I don't know what crawled up you butt there TLHeart but you sure picked the wrong guy to piss with, mainly because I didn't do a damn thing to you, not because I am some big bad internet flamer with uber skills, because I am not. Times like these I wish Wheeloffire where around because I know he would love this one and HE, being the master of the flame, would set out to make you feel lower than the surface tension UNDER the layer of pond scum of which you are. So again, my comments were never directed at you, were never anywhere near the levels of idiocy you try to claim they are and uh, take a look at the main page here. You will find lots of people having problems with this game for many, many different reasons... but I guess in your eyes I am the only one who can't get this game to run right, am I correct? I must be since you felt it necessary to start with me.

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This isn't the place for personal insults and arguing. If you guys can't be civil, take it private or drop it.

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

It is a trivial matter to me...anyone who only plays less than 10 turns at a time, is basically cheating, unleveling the playing feild against the ai.

I bet you wouldn't say that if you had a busy lifestyle and several kids at your back nagging you to use the computer.... not that i have kids but i can imagine it would be very difficult to play for long periods of time if you did.

Some people are lucky to get in five minutes of play here and their, and i feel sorry for them, rather than calling them cheaters.

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Don't ever talk down to me unless I am laying on your wife.

Just make sure its really TLHeart's wife and not Mumble in a maid outfit!

Rock on, Stormbringer!

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Just DON'T claim the game is playing with a level playing field anymore.

Last time I checked, the AI doesn't get to reload a saved game when they make a mistake. I mean come on, let's be real here. The people being affected by this in even the mremotest sense are the ones who play a few turns, save a game, and then reload it every time something doesn't go their way. The balance of advantage is overwhelmingly with the player.

Now, with regards to the overall issue:

We're a very transparent company. All companies have budgets. With another company they'd make the call or not and the user just deals with it. In this case, we're trying to make sure players are part of the process in deciding on what gets worked on.

My personal opinion is that the "Advantage" gained by the AI in this is so trivial that it doesn't even warrant this discussion. The only people who might be affected by it are the people who are constantly reloading the game to which one might argue that it's almost as if the AI were trying to even things up.

I've got X engineering hours in the budget for updates. We want to make sure players have a lot input into what those engineering hours are used for.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Yes, and as stated, this doesn't seem that it would make the Metaverse games 'fair' anymore since we aren't playing on the same level field. And now we have some 'choices' to make eh? Well, if you can GUARANTEE me that this 'bug' isn't the cause of a CTD AT ALL, then I guess I can handle that. Can you guarantee this? I've never received an appropriate response to my emails/debug errors, with the exception of maybe two or three that Cari looked into for me, and she came up with nothing at that point in time. I did receive a few emails after the fact from whoever in the 'bug department' and basically all they contained were inquisitions as to why my email name wasn't the same as the one I used to register this game. Nothing was ever touched on with regards to my CTD's, which is fine, but considering I went through the 'proper channels', I feel a little let down.
This topic has shown me yet another 'bug', whether you wish to call it that or not is up to you. Brad pretty much stating it is "our choice" almost sounds like we are being 'chastised', or at the very least 'warned' to be wary of what we ask for. IMO this is wrong. I can understand limited resources and getting the most bang for your buck, but to basically lay this at our feet... seems like Army basic T... you know, weed out the few trouble makers and then punish the rest of the platoon for their actions and let the platoon take out their frustration on the few who caused the fuss.

The issue being discussed is a bug. Our bug. No doubt about it.

But I do want to address a couple of things, Storm:

Can you name another game you've ever bought where the lead developer of the game has personally emailed you multiple times to personally try to resolve your problem? Cari is the lead developer of Galactic Civilizations. She personally looked into it multiple times and has interacted with you. I have talked to you as well.

And yet, at the end of the day, you feel "let down"? Do you really think that's a reasonable position to take?

IMO, the reason Stardock has been so successful is because we deal openly and honestly with users. That means warts and all. The players become part of the team.

With the N engineering hours budgeted, we want to work on the things people want us to work on. Do they want us to sift through 6 year old code to figure out why the AI gets to set their social project on turn 0? Do they want us to put in more constructor management features? Do they want us to improve the AI? Do they want some additional balancing to the ship parts? Do they want more technologies? More maps? These are all questions to find out what people are looking for us to do.

I've given my opinion already but just to sound bite it: The "advantage" this gives is so trivial that it's not worth looking into right away. That doesn't mean we won't be casually looking at it but I think there are more significant issues involved that need addressing than to make this a priority issue.

Compared to the fact that players get to save and restore games (and let's be real here, THAT is a gigantic advantage), the AI really is at quite a disadvantage. If we were trying to be truly fair, we shouldn't allow players to save game in ranked games. But that's not realistic so we have to tolerate it. But to hear people argue that the AI getting what amounts to a relatively tiny first turn advantage while ignoring the save and reload advantage seems odd to me.

Those reading this that are familiar with software development know the drill, everything gets put into a database with a priority. The question is what priority to put this.

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If I've been playing this game for 10 months this way, then it doesn't matter to me. I've learned this game playing against it this way and this discovery doesn't make any difference to how I'm going to play my next game.

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

If I've been playing this game for 10 months this way, then it doesn't matter to me. I've learned this game playing against it this way and this discovery doesn't make any difference to how I'm going to play my next game.

Actually descovering this has changed the way i play... Now i try to continue playing on as long as possible at the beginning of a game. So it is wise not to start playing a game when you do not have much time.

I remember back in galciv1 i used to do this because the AI would be capable of vacuuming up all the anomalies much quicker when you reload. It does not appear to still do this in DL and DA?

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for example the limitation of the colony module to 250 colonists.

However, it has been answered elsewhere that the 250 co-mod was an actual design choice by Brad for 1.6, not a bug or an unintended consequence.

drrider

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However, it has been answered elsewhere that the 250 co-mod was an actual design choice by Brad for 1.6, not a bug or an unintended consequence.

I'll throw in the comment that, because you can now use more than one colony module on a ship, I think the new design is much better than the old one. Even on turn 1, you can design and build a "super-size" colony ship with 3 colony modules which carries MORE population than any old colony ship could. More engines or more initial population? The choice is yours...

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(Citizen)TLHeartMay 15, 2007 13:52:54

It is a trivial matter to me...anyone who only plays less than 10 turns at a time, is basically cheating, unleveling the playing feild against the ai.

(Avatar)FrogboyMay 15, 2007 22:17:57

Last time I checked, the AI doesn't get to reload a saved game when they make a mistake. I mean come on, let's be real here. The people being affected by this in even the mremotest sense are the ones who play a few turns, save a game, and then reload it every time something doesn't go their way. The balance of advantage is overwhelmingly with the player.

Why is there this assumption that those of us who have to save an reload a game (at the same point) multiple time before we reach the conclusion of the game are trying to cheat? I have sometimes played the game for hours without interruption, but much more often I need to play for half an hour or so, then save and shut down the PC. I have NEVER reloaded an earlier position in the game for sake of advantage...if I am losing, I lose. I mostly quit after a few turns because...my young son wants to use the laptop...my wife wants my company...I didn't have as much wakefulness after the late shift as I thought...its time to go for swimming lessons...Jim and Sue are expecting us...etc.

And I think it is pretty well established in the comments here that the "turn 0" building BY ITSELF is not viewed as a big deal even by those of us who would like to see a fix relatively soon. What bothers me, and I think most others on the side of a sooner-rather-than-later fix, is the indication by those who have investigated in detail that the extra AI round-of-play may occur on every reload, at each save point throughout the game.

For the sake of a nice clear vote, I WOULD rather have THAT possibility dealt with ahead of additional constructor controls, enhanced graphics, new races, more maps.

If that aspect also cannot be dealt with without a major recoding, just say so. I'll drop any further comments on the matter. But please don't imply that my need to usually play in short stretches is because I wish to cheat my way through the game. That might get me to drop any further comments as well, along with any further patronage.

drrider

PS - Brad, its is amazing to me that you budget as many manhours as you do to sustainment of your games, and I really appreciate it.

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Evil,

My wife died in a car crash.

The company has worked with you, and your demands over and over, yet you still scream loudly and often.

As for the direction Stardock should take, forget about the turn 0 feature. Spend the time on the AI improvements, and a little less micro management for the human.

Now back to my game on my stable computer that runs the game just fine.

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Just my two cents worth. If it has been this way since GalCiv1 then it should wait to be fixed in GalCiv3. People have unknowingly lived with it up until now and there won't be much difference now that people know about this issue (yes some strategy's might change in a minor way but overall will there be any difference?).

I am someone who cannot play for long periods of time but get a game in here-and-there and it will only get worse as my wife and I have a baby on the way. Oh well, it will just make the game more challenging and I like a challenge.

Also, as a programmer I can completely understand that while this bug could take a lot of time to fix. If it has been in the game since GalCiv1 then it must be in the very core logic of the game and I can imagine that it would be a nightmare to test even if turns out to be relatively easy to fix.

Please don't waste time fixing it in GalCiv2 - add new features, improve some shortcomings and fix some of the other bugs that can destabilise the game in a bigger way (i.e. those bugs that got discovered quickly because their effect can ruin strategies). Then, fix it in GalCiv3 when you start working on it.

I think that all of the developers at Stardock are great that they allow us so much input into the game and work with us. It is a shame that most software companies are not like that. Keep up the good work guys and gals!

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Hypothetical, Situational Conversation of One Side:

"Yes, Mister Mechanic of The Car Dealership. Each time I start my car I am losing a gallon of fuel. I've determined that this can be made less detrimental by making many destinations in one trip; also by leaving the car running as long as possible, even at work and at home while I'm sleeping.

It's great that you can fix this for me! Thank you.

No...I wouldn't rather prefer first that you update my nice rims and comfortable seat from the last update with even nicer rims and a more comfortable seat.

Yes, I know that you already ordered the newer rims and seat. I would like those during a different future appointment, please; or maybe when I purchase another vehicle from you.

I know that you had your heart set on the new rims and seat for me because others will notice and want to do business with you. They do not notice the fuel leak though until after they purchase one of your vehicles; or maybe they hear or read about it. At that point I'm sure that many of them consider the fuel leak a prime issue for you to resolve.

You have openings for an appointment to fix my vehicle! Okay! Thank you so much for your cooperation, comitment to customer satisfaction, and pride in your product."

-Wade

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are you using cheat? if so then it is possible that the AI's can use cheats as well.

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Well I am a geezer, 48, divorced, 3 kids, 5 grandkids

Evil,

My wife died in a car crash.

So which one is it TL? Seems to me you are caught in a bold faced lie here so please show us which one is the 'true' statement. You sir seem like nothing more than a 'possible troll' and a definite liar. I will respect Kryo's wishes and not flame away here as you and that are beneath me. So enjoy your game that 'runs just fine' as you said, which doesn't phase me a bit because I actually am happy for the people who get to enjoy this great game without issues... as I am not petty like yourself. Keep up the good work old man... you make it easy for me to show you for what you really are... a trouble making 'geezer'.

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Can you name another game you've ever bought where the lead developer of the game has personally emailed you multiple times to personally try to resolve your problem? Cari is the lead developer of Galactic Civilizations. She personally looked into it multiple times and has interacted with you. I have talked to you as well.

And yet, at the end of the day, you feel "let down"? Do you really think that's a reasonable position to take?

I apologize if the words 'let down' implied more than they should have meant. I don't feel that way and am grateful as well as impressed that you do take the time to respond to myself and others. You should know by now that I am not in here to stir up trouble and am genuine in my requests for some fixes or advice on how to fix things on my end. I don't think I would have continued within this community or this game if my actual opinion was one like what TLHeart paints it to be. Sure I burst in here with an attitude and I admit it. Over time you guys have swayed me into thinking a little more rationally than I was. Does this mean that I should just shut up and not say what's going on with my game? Does this mean that I shouldn't lend my comments or questions or requests?
To answer the main part of your question... no, no other game developers have ever interacted with me. Your company seems like a GREAT company and it does bend over backwards to please it's customers... there is NO DOUBT about that. Hell Brad, I'm not even blaming anything on anyone with any of this, I am just trying to get the most 'stable running' game I can out of this. If I didn't like your product or your company then I wouldn't be here, plain and simple. Do CTD's piss me off? Hell yes! Is this an awesome game? Hell yes again! Are you guys the greatest gaming company ever with regards to support and updates and interaction with your customers? Again, hell yes!
Sorry if you feel that I don't like your company, if you do feel this way. I would think that I have demonstrated enough 'support' for your company and yourselves.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

We were planning on enhancing how to manage constructors in dealing with starbases with 1.7

I almost missed this gem of information that Brad mentioned because of the sniping that started to creep into this thread. In my mind this is indeed a far better utilization of a finite resource.

Also there really is not any benefit in allowing yourself to drawn into what for a bit started to look like childish name calling. Everyone must certainly realize that everyone posting to these forums has the best interest of the game at heart, in that we have far more commonality than differences.

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@Kryo

The triviality of the fix itself is NOT to be equated with the amount of work that may need to be done to complete it; tiny bugs very often do not have tiny fixes.

I think you're trying to obscure the whole triviality of the fix vs triviality of the bug thing. The amount of time to fix it doesn't change if it's fixed in GC3. As with any other thing, the sooner, the less problems later.

Work is typically measured in man-hours, so saying 'it could take hours to do' does not by any means imply it won't actually take days or more.

It's hours nonetheless. Any other task that would take the same amount of hours would take the exact same amount of days then.

At any rate, ToS, you really need to settle down if you want your complaints to be heard (here and on other threads).

Wrong. You hear them nonetheless. If you do something about them, that's another story. But then, if you don't because of my supposed attitude, then what does that say?

Taking such an adversarial (and often nitpicky) stance is not at all condusive to getting people on your side of the argument.

So what do you consider nitpicky and what do you consider substancial? I see a lot of substancial stuff being dismissed. Also, I don't need to get anyone "on my side of the argument". It's not a popularity contest. The reports speak for themselves. Again, if it's in your best interest to fix them or not, it's not really me or "my side" that decides it.

And AFAIK, SD has an art dept, a docs dpt, a dev dept, a metaverse dpt, and Frogboy working on the AI. So there's really no overlapping of dev hours when it comes to people, so that in that sense it is possible to develop simultaneously the AI, the gfx, the maps, the fixes, etc.

BTW, @ no one in particular, tech talk doesn't impress me. Been there, done plenty of that. Some people still think saying "I'm a programmer, I know" is something that should impress. Gee, what a shock.

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So what do you consider nitpicky

The 'triviality of fix/bug' argument, for one thing. You're stretching out minor semantics in Brad's post, trying to argue the opposite of what he meant.

The amount of time to fix it doesn't change if it's fixed in GC3. As with any other thing, the sooner, the less problems later.

The key difference between fixing it now and then is that GC3 is not restricted by the post-DA updates budget and manpower allocations. And who's to say that GC3 will continue to work from the same core codebase as previous GC games (and thus have this issue at all), rather than that of the other game(s) between now and then?

As Brad has said, fixing it now means NOT doing other things that are likely to be far more desireable to players.

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Fixing something like this could end up being pretty time-consuming potentially. Those are hours that could be spent updating other things.

I see kyro already got to this, but just to kick you when you're down, frogboy said:

Fixing something like this could end up being pretty time-consuming potentially. Those are hours that could be spent updating other things.

PRETTY TIME-CONSUMING. Do I need to define this for you, moron. I know your time probably isn't valuable enough for 'hours' to seem like a big investment, or to even know that people aren't payed or labor resources allocated by the 'days' or 'decades', but in the real world this is true.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

moron

This kind of comment is not particularly helpful.

At any rate, ToS, you really need to settle down if you want your complaints to be heard (here and on other threads).

Wrong. You hear them nonetheless. If you do something about them, that's another story. But then, if you don't because of my supposed attitude, then what does that say?

As you say hearing them and doing something about them are two entirely different things. I haven't been paying all that much attention to the thread but the supposed attitude that you mention can certainly make a difference between someone wanting to help you or not. The fact that anything gets fixed at all is a credit to Stardock. Most game companies would essentially tell you to go pound sand. That's assuming they would bother to dignify your complaint with a response at all. To have the CEO of the company respond directly to your issue (four times no less) is unheard of. The fact that his pronouncement didn't quite jive with your wishes makes this no less so.

Also, Kryo is slow to make direct comment and even slower to criticize. I have no knowledge about any history on other threads, but a minor admonishment from Kryo to settle down is undoubtably well deserved and is advice a reasonable person would do well to heed.

Personally I prefer to get along with as many folks as possible, life is really too short to get your panties in a bunch, but I'm old enough to know that everyone isn't going to get along with everyone else. I'd prefer if you took this as "friendly advice", however, if you decide not to I won't be loosing any sleep over it.

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@Kryo

The triviality of the fix itself is NOT to be equated with the amount of work that may need to be done to complete it; tiny bugs very often do not have tiny fixes.

I think you're trying to obscure the whole triviality of the fix vs triviality of the bug thing. The amount of time to fix it doesn't change if it's fixed in GC3. As with any other thing, the sooner, the less problems later.

I would like to know how you know this? Do you have any programming experience? And they weren't obscuring anything. You simply suffer from poor reading comprehension.

Work is typically measured in man-hours, so saying 'it could take hours to do' does not by any means imply it won't actually take days or more.

It's hours nonetheless. Any other task that would take the same amount of hours would take the exact same amount of days then.

Is this suppossed to be a point? You were trying to imply that the fix was trivial based on the use of the term hours, being ignorant about the significance of the use of hours, especially given the sentence immediatly preceding the use of 'hours'. Fool.

At any rate, ToS, you really need to settle down if you want your complaints to be heard (here and on other threads).

Wrong. You hear them nonetheless. If you do something about them, that's another story. But then, if you don't because of my supposed attitude, then what does that say?

Taking such an adversarial (and often nitpicky) stance is not at all condusive to getting people on your side of the argument.

So what do you consider nitpicky and what do you consider substancial? I see a lot of substancial stuff being dismissed. Also, I don't need to get anyone "on my side of the argument". It's not a popularity contest. The reports speak for themselves. Again, if it's in your best interest to fix them or not, it's not really me or "my side" that decides it.

And AFAIK, SD has an art dept, a docs dpt, a dev dept, a metaverse dpt, and Frogboy working on the AI. So there's really no overlapping of dev hours when it comes to people, so that in that sense it is possible to develop simultaneously the AI, the gfx, the maps, the fixes, etc.

BTW, @ no one in particular, tech talk doesn't impress me. Been there, done plenty of that. Some people still think saying "I'm a programmer, I know" is something that should impress. Gee, what a shock.

Oh, this is rich. You already admitted you don't know what you're talking about or that SD will make its descisions based on your (lame) input, and yet you put an inordinate amount of time into making (dumb, ignorant) criticisms. Do you think about these things at all before you post?

Fool.

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'Moron' may not be helpful, but it's well deserved and being justified with each post the idiot makes.

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