Cikomyr

Join Date 06/2005

+11

Why always the best?

There is one thing that frustrates me quite. I wonder why, when I have developped Research Academies (or any other advanced building) am I forced to build only those? If a minor colony I wanted it to focus on research, I don't have the factory capacity to build ONE Research Academy before 20 turns! While that, if I could simply build Basic research facility, all my tiles would have their, then I would progressivly upgrade the planet...

The same for every other kind of building. When I'm starting a planet, I don't want it to build a uber-expensive facility right away (never have the 3000 bc needed to buy), can we have an option to choose which level of developpement a chosen colony would buy?

Like:
Colony Alpha IV
Factory Level: 2 (can build factories)
Economical Level: 1 (can buy basic markets)
Research Level: 1 (can build basic research lab)

Then, over time, when every tile is used, I could upgrade the technological level of the colony, so every research lab would automaticly upgrade. Then, I would upper to the next level.. etc...

It's plainly frustatring to know that a research academy don't produce a single research point while in construction, so you have 0 for about 20 turns, when you could have bought a basic research, then upgraded it all the way to research academy, for as many turns (maybe a little more), but with a good progression of research on the way...

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I dont know how I feel about this idea. It sounds like it could make the game comlicated and I like the system like it is now. However, if it would make peoples game better then it might not be so bad.

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Its even worse for factories ... I captured a beautiful world with no factories on it. The only problem was that I was in the highest factory level. Length of time to get the colony up an running? 300 turns. Give me a break. I must have sunk 50 K credits to get that colony up and running.

I think obsolete structures need to be buildable, otherwise if you are far ahead in structure tech, why bother capturing planets?

Unfortunatly because the AI would now need to know that obsolete structures are available I don't think this is an easy fix. Important, but not easy

Dano

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It would be nice to be able to start at the lower levels. The only way around the present situation is to have a great economy and plenty of bc's in the bank so you can purchase an advanced industrial improvement or two. Otherwise you can't really get anything but farms unless you want to wait forever.

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I agree this situation is problematic. If you are in the mid game with manufactering centers and innovation matrices, and you capture a fresh planet, making it fully developed will take probably longer than the remaining game itself, so in effect, these captured planets are quite worthless except for the influence they bring.

Two good solutions would be to either not allow building these super-structures from scratch but that you always begin with the lowest and then upgrade, or, you can build them from scratch but you can select the level of the construction you build, perhaps with a simple slider?

I would _really_ like to see this resolved!

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There's some good points raised here. One possible solution would be to have the lower-level factories, etc, be prereqs for the higher ones. That is, you can only build a basic building in an undeveloped square, which would then open up the automatic upgrade paths. That way the AI wouldn't need to decide on the level of building, and it wouldn't add any extra micromanagement.

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Build one factory on every world, no matter how small, for that reason. You need it to upgrade your buildings anyways.
And most planets you capture will have SOME manufacturing on it.. you just need to improve it.

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Maybe I will need to upgrade my building anyways, but at least, on the way, I will get something out of the old stuff I build. A basic research upgraded into a research academy will still produce 5(?) research point along the way, while a built-from-scratch academy will produce 0 for.. what? 10-20 turns?

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And most planets you capture will have SOME manufacturing on it.. you just need to improve it.

Not all do. Plus, most of the invasion tactics have a chance of destroying improvements.

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Voqar

Join Date 03/2003

+21

I find this to be an issue too and I remember reading about it back in the beta phases - but I don't remember what the response was from the devs.

Another possible solution might be to get incremental value out of anything but the lowest level structures. So, if I build a tier 2 factory, when it's 50% complete I get tier 1 production out of it. If I build a tier 3 factory I get tier 1 production at 33% and tier 2 production at 66%. This would simulate the upgrading track of going from a lower tier building to a higher tier building, would work for both AIs and players without additional/special AI coding, and would avoid the brutal screen clutter that would occur if we had every single tier of structure possible in the build list (something I would not want to see).

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Ok, this isn't a game balancing issue as much as it is a personal economy management issue. By the time i reach the highest level of factories/labs/etc, i'm rolling in dough. I can always buy that first factory and then start building research facilities.

And if the need is very high and for some reason i don't have the money, I can always sell a tech or two for some cold hard cash. Or raise the taxes (this adds up REALLY fast if you have even a few well populated colonies). Or cut back on spending for a few turns.

Also, keep an eye on your fleet composition. Having lots of small, obsolete vessels still waiting in orbit can cut your income severely. And it's very easy to forget about those little buggers that you used as early planet defenses. You can even sell them to other races for some money

If they enable you to build low-level facilities, it basically becomes EZ-mode to build and expand colonies.

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This was a known problem in beta/gamma, and the devs couldn't provide a good solution in time for release. I would be surprized if they're not working on a solution to it, though I don't have any inside information, so I don't know what that solution would be (I suggested a few) or what timeframe we can expect it in.

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Not all do. Plus, most of the invasion tactics have a chance of destroying improvements.

Well, if you're going to destroy the improvements, you should be prepared to have to build them back.

I only destroy improvements if I'm losing the war. Otherwise, you can wait for an extra transport or two and have a planet that doesen't suck.

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Tremo, depending on your play style, it can be a very serious issue. In some of my games, I'm culture-flipping 3-5 colonies a turn. It takes two Industrial Sectors to get a colony able to build end-game improvements at a reasonable rate, so you're now talking 54K-90K BC per turn. Even a strong economy can't pull that off.

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So let's say here on Earth you wanted to build a research center. But you decide that you don't have enough money to do it quick enough, so instead of giving your scientists high-tech computers and lab equipment, you put them in a log cabin with abacuses (abacii?) and papyrus. It just doesn't work. Part of the reason that new technology is available is that you have turned your back on the old technology. I agree it's a hardship, but I think it makes sense the way it is. You shouldn't be able to produce end game equipment or study end game theories with early game facilities, unless no other option is available.

The side effect this has curbing rapid expansion through conquest is a good one i think, and works against the AI as well.

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I See your point Habadacus, but I think it succeeds too well at curbing rapid expansion. The drain that new colonies put on your economy make it totally useless to acquire colonies through ANY means. You might as well destroy new ones, which means that cultural and military victories are harder than they need to be. Plus it seems silly that a civilization that is in near stone-age tech (comparitively speaking) can get a colony turning a profit faster than a god like one.

I really like Voqar's suggestion, though I think it would have to be tweaked a little. After five turns of a 300 turn project you are still only at a fraction of a single percent in production.

Dano

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The developers were talking about this a bit earlier today (after I called their attention to this thread

) I personally think it would be an improvement. There would be quite a bit to change, but at least it's being discussed.

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2 thumbs up to Stardock, then! (once again!, hehe..)

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